Thomas Paine was a great champion of American liberty, but I think we are fortunate that while he helped clear the way for America’s government he did not have direct involvement in its creation. He understood the cause of human freedom. He placed society as a good and recognized that government was evil in all forms but necessary in some. He had a clear and correct picture of what government should not be, but his ideas for what government should be were lacking. Unfortunatly, it appears that he failed to see the some of the evils inherent in the proposals he made for governance later in life.

The one fortunate thing is that if he followed the ideals for governance that he laid out in Common Sense most of his ideas would never come to fruition. He stressed that the interests of the elected should never be separated from the interests of the electors. While the Americans of his day were not interested in the governance of England they clearly didn’t favor Paine’s later ideas of spreading the wealth. So Paine saved America from himself as long as America would stick to his guidance of government fidelity to the public.

I always thought the Founding Fathers implemented an estate tax to head off an aristocracy. Turns out I was wrong; the estate tax was implemented in the 20th century. But now I know where the idea came from. Paine was on the right track; the implementation came later.

And if you read the essay, not only is he the father of those particular programs, he identifies the underlying issue as social justice (and he makes a halfway decent run at an economic justification too).

I guess the Founding Fathers didn’t plan much for health care, because back then “health care” basically killed you and didn’t cost much.

You are right. Here is Thomas Paine’s system:

I shall now proceed to the plan I have to propose, which is,

To create a national fund, out of which there shall be paid to every person, when arrived at the age of twenty-one years, the sum of fifteen pounds sterling, as a compensation in part, for the loss of his or her natural inheritance, by the introduction of the system of landed property:

And also, the sum of ten pounds per annum, during life, to every person now living, of the age of fifty years, and to all others as they shall arrive at that age.

And Paine funds this with – get this – a death tax.

It is not charity but a right, not bounty but justice, that I am pleading for. The present state of civilization is as odious as it is unjust. It is absolutely the opposite of what it should be, and it is necessary that a revolution should be made in it. The contrast of affluence and wretchedness continually meeting and offending the eye, is like dead and living bodies chained together. Though I care as little about riches as any man, I am a friend to riches because they are capable of good.

I care not how affluent some may be, provided that none be miserable in consequence of it.

SSSSMOKIN’ ………………… !!!

Thanks to the health care bill, one of those costs out there that didn’t make it to my balance sheet apparently now includes providing Viagra to sex offenders. Pardon me for bucking against my “CIVIC DUTY.” Even if you believe that social justice inspired answer you gave me expansive government entitlements have made it a bunch of bunk. Am I really paying for things that helped me earn that money when I pay my taxes? At one point that may have been true, but the amount of money taken in taxes that actually benneffits the tax payer and enables them to earn more has been greatly diluted.

Earning a living is not robbing society it is building society. Taking away the justly earned living of others because the politicians have decided how much money they should get to keep destroys society. Your utopia is corruption in my eyes.

Timothy, I still say you are advocating we jump into a time machine back to imaginary yesterday that never was. It was dirty, barbaric, full of sickness injustice savagery. Less freedom less prosperity. Streets fouled with sewage. Men died at 45. Women blacks traded as chattel. The crippled, the beggars squatted in the gutter. Infants died terrible deaths. Abortion was rampant. That is why life, liberty, happiness, common defense, general welfare are foundational themes of this still new government. Now look where we are. Everything better. Yet you are bitching like something has gone horribly wrong. We need to get back to 1776.

No doubt Paine talked about permanent tax permanent payments to all citizens dispossessed of land. Paine is widely recognized as one of the great thinkers on inheritance tax as a way to avoid stagnation of wealth among a small number of families. We have quotes to support just about anything. The danger is thinking “you” have cracked the code. The Founders wanted a nice happy free prosperous United States with justice for all. We are working out the details everyday.

And why the overreacting exaggerations. Somebody says money earned is never “all ours”. That’s reinterpreted by you to mean a paycheck is “dirty bad as committing murder sickening”. What is up with that? The point was simply everything we earn in the private sector is made possible by support from the public sector. You are advocating for a free lunch. Tax pays for the public sector. Do we hire our own police to guard our workplace where we earn “our money” no we do the policing collectively. When we flush our toilet at work, do we pay for the elaborate system? No. We do that collectively. That is the point. Not dirty not murder. Nobody wants to “steal” everybody’s money and give it to poor lazy people so we can all be equal. Nobody hates profit and business and rich people. You are fighting imaginary demons placed in your head by professional political wrestlers all huffing and puffing throwing chairs and beating their chests to get your attention. the political hucksters.

Your argument is sincere, but I am afraid it is make believe. You have been led to believe much that simply is not true. First among those falsehoods is the belief that we should apply our war grievances against the King Of England to the Congress of the United States. Second, it the false assumption that we do not work collectively in the United States.

Even the California water deal is twisted out of recognition to make anti-government points. Who set up that whole incredible network that turned desert into prosperity? Collectivism. The government. Us. Tax payers. We the People. All together for the common good. Those are good words. Not bad words. They are American words.

So the owner of the vineyard, the casino mogul, they are going to claim it’s all “their” money. There genius. How self centered. Did they build the Hoover dam? How do we charge them for common defense general welfare? Do they spit at the thought of being “forced” to put back into the pot? That is not American.

You should not be dipping back to 1775 trying to stretch language directed at the King of England and somehow twist into an attack on the very Congress our Founders put in place.

Taxes are society’s way of tapping you on the shoulder and saying “Ahem…. you didn’t make that money all by yourself; there are some other costs out there that don’t appear on your balance sheet.”

Some of the policies being followed today are designed to exaserbate poverty and desperation. One example would be the forced drought in California. The farms didn’t need to dry up those towns didn’t need to become desolate. Families and businesses did not need to be impoverished. Our government’s policies made it that way. Social justice, economic justice, and ecological justice enforced by a top heavy government are doing that to Americans.

anon, the way you describe collecting a paycheck and earning money makes it seem as dirty and bad as committing murder. It is baffling to me, and it is sickening.

anon2, on the other hand seems to be progressing to the point were they will be able to describe being mugged as a glorious act of benevolence. I can practically see the angles singing every time a person is robbed in that kind of world. Once again I am baffled by the praises of having one’s money taken from them. You might find this supprising but no one has ever been Sainted for paying their taxes. That is because paying taxes isn’t charity.

Your quibbling over the difference between wealth and income is legitimate but it is also interesting. Taxing income is a surfire way to limit an individual’s opportunity of ever generating wealth. It is interesting to see how and how often “social progress” slows and even blocks personal progress. When the individuals that make up a society are limited in how much wealth they can generate the society is also limited. Then all progress tends to slow, stop, and even reverse course.