Should There Be A Mosque Free Zone ?
Aug 10th, 2010 by Frank Knotts
There has been a lot of talk lately about the opening of a mosque in New York City, to be located less than two blocks from the site of the World Trade Center.
Naturally this has led to outrage from people around the nation, who see it as a direct insult to the memories of those who lost their lives on 9/11. Anyone who has read my postings on 9/11 know how much it affected me. I believe that the attackers were cowards.
Many people are calling on New York City to deny the mosque the right to be located so close to the WTC site. They see it as the Islamic equivalent of a victory marker. I can’t say that I disagree with that. I also understand the emotions at play in the response to this mosques being so close to a site that reminds us of the worst attack on American soil in our history.
Now, with all that being said. I am equally concerned with the amount of disregard for our nation’s rule of law, and the Constitution.
Many in the media have taken the opportunity to state that the mosque should be denied the right to be opened based only on the fact that it is a mosque. In my opinion this is a clear violation of the first amendment that guarantees the right to freedom of religion.
If the mosque were denied the right to open based on traffic issues or other current building codes of the city, there would be no problem. The problem in my view comes when you deny them the right based on the hatred of their religious beliefs.
I have been criticized for this view as you can well imagine, I have even been called a liberal for it. WOW!
The Constitution is not a document of convenance. You cannot wave it proudly when it suits your purpose, and then cast it aside when it runs counter to your purely emotional response to an issue. The people asking for the mosque to be denied the right to open based on a religious faith are willing to cast our entire system and rule of law aside, based on their hatred of those who took the mantle of that faith upon themselves and used it to kill.
The very minute that we sacrifice our rule of law to our emotions, we say to the world and to those who would defeat us, that we have no faith in our own system and our Constitution. We best protect our own freedoms and rights, by protecting the rights and freedoms of those around us, even those that we disagree with. We have seen in our recent history, times when Nazi groups were allowed to march through the streets of small town America. Not because the towns agreed with the views of the Nazis, but because the Constitution protects their rights, the same as it does those of the Jewish faith.
Some will say that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. These people are the ones who are allowing their hatred to rule over their common sense. They do not see the larger picture here. We have laws against murder, against terrorist activity. And if the powers that be can link this mosque in New York or any around the nation to anything that is illegal, then those mosque and those involved with them should be subject to prosecution.
I know that this is not a popular position to take on such an emotional issue. I know that some will accuse me of not caring about those we lost on 9/11. But I look to the Constitution for guidance on issues such as this, and I believe when the Constitution is adhered to, and is applied equally to all citizens , then it works. If, on the other hand it is used in an ad hoc form, it can be no more than a tool of the lawless.
Those who are screaming the loudest, those who while speaking of the opening of the mosque in New York, have also said things like,” I wouldn’t be surprised to see it burn”, are nothing more than the cowards that they condemn. When we speak this way, when we call for the use of laws to bar people , based on their religious faith, we run the real risk of having the same thing happen to ourselves in the future.
I ask those calling for the mosque to be denied the right to open, to think of this. What if the mosque is denied the right to open? Does this not set the precedent of denying a religious organization the right to exist? So what is to stop a town or city government-run by atheist from denying a Christian church the right to exist?
I say that these small-minded people calling for the mosque to be denied their right to open only on the fact of their religion, care nothing about this nation and its history, nor the very reasons it was founded.
When it comes to issues such as this, we can stand on the Constitution, we can stand behind it, but we cannot, I repeat, we cannot stand in front of it. We cannot put our own emotion before the rule of law that has served this nation so well, for so long. Those that would are actually a larger danger to our freedoms than those they condemn as enemies of this nation.
Damn, Frank? You should take more time off, you’re starting to make sense.
Well – now I agree with David on two points and Frank on this one
all without insults and recriminations
things are looking scary
Of course the day Rick and I agree on anything – stop the presses -
I do not, and never will, blindly follow any party line – things come and opinions are made on a case by case basis – this is generally why I cannot abide the blind party followers on either side of the aisle.
The Cordoba Institute has been there, functioning for 29 years, with no problems. This is a matter of freedom of religion and expression. -They too where affected by 911 – adversely so – why can other affected be made whole – but we single them out for punishement??
and all across the nation this is happening. In Teneessee and California as well… this is predjudice plain and simple against a religious group – not what this nation stands for at all
and might i remond everyone what happend the last time a religious group was singled out for persecution?? It was ugly as I remember…
I don’t think they should be legally blocked from doing this, but I do think people should have enough common sense and respect not to do this. Those are qualities few people have any more.
Maybe they should build a skinhead center at Dachau, too.
Frank sounds so awkward when he says something right.
Ultimately, the question supercedes the immediate situation of whether or not to allow a mosque to be built on Ground Zero. It supercedes issues of emotion, going straight to the heart of the authority roles of church/religion and state.
The Muslim faith does not accede to the idea that governance is separate from the practice of faith. The two spheres are one and the same. There is no thought of “rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s.” Religious practice/laws and governance are one and the same.
The Prophet Muhammed thought– and his present day followers think–government ought to enforce Islamic law. Even those who reject Islam should be legally required to follow its teachings. The ultimate goal of Islam is to require even those held in dhimmitude to follow Islamic law.
Here’s why: The Prophet Muhammed rejected the Christian idea of salvation through grace by the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ. Instead, the Koran states that humans effect their own salvation through good works as put forth by the prophet Muhammed and the religious rulers following him.
This belief makes it impossible for religious freedom to gain a foothold in a predominately Islamic nation, for the reasoning is (as one now unknown online and now lost to memory author pointed out) that if humans can earn salvation through a certain code of laws (sharia), then why shouldn’t rulers require that behavior of all people? It is only for the good of all that sharia law prevail, for therein is found salvation.
This thinking is in direct contrast to the ideals in which democracies are rooted. The founders of the United States did not believe the role of government was salvific, but, rather, severely limited. The founders left matters of salvation up to the individual conscience rather than to the state. The governor of Delaware, for instance, is not responsible for the spiritual salvation of Delawareans.
An Islamic ruler IS responsible for the salvation of the people under him; and all laws find their basis in the Koran and the interpretation of Koranic laws from the time of Muhammed until now.
Therefore, the incorporation of Islam into the corporate body of any democracy, including the US, presents a problem, as most citizens of our country do not wish to follow Islamic law, while Muslims believe following the precepts of Muhammed is a requirement for ALL. This is why, for instance, Muslims insist on governments allowing them separate judicial jurisdiction.
This is, then, the primary issue: How does the United States come to a workable agreement with a religion whose foundational beliefs are not only diametrically opposed to the constitution, and whose beliefs require the eventual submission of all to Islamic precepts?
Americans will find the two principles–those of Islam and democracy–inherently incompatible. Either one or the other must prevail.
Therein lies the lesson of the proposed mosque on Ground Zero. Any mosque, including that mosque, is a testament to the supremacy of Islamic law and a statement to our democracy that Islam alone is the supreme rule of law.
So the question is whether or not the US constitution permits the free exercise of a faith that is committed to principles diametrically opposed to and dedicated to the eradication of the current democratic concepts of the rule of law.
The dilemmas outlined above are already conundrums to be reckoned with in European democracies.
A solution is also needed here in the US.
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Someone should open a gay bar next door. See how tolerant these people really are.
I agree with Frank 100%. If the government has the power to stop their mosque because of public passion, it has the power to stop my church because someone may not agree with beliefs on marriage or abortion. This is not a slippery slope to undermining religious liberty. It is an out right landslide.
Welcome back Frank.
Fay, welcome back. I fear a runaway government more than I fear peaceful Muslims even though their beliefs are not mainstream among American Muslims.
We have a right to alter and abolish our form of government so in a free society we tolerate even people who want to advocate we abolish freedom. We defeat them and their ideas. We do not ban them. When they start advocating violence which deprives us of our right to win by mere persuadsion, then we have the right and maybe the duty to shut them down.
I do agree that it is a trophy so to speak. They will view it that way. I view it as a trophy to our ability to stand for the rule of law instead of a rule of passion.
It may still get tripped up due to technicalities. They have yet to put under contract half of the land and are still raising money. I have no objections to 10,000 people investing money in prime real estate to buy that other plot. If you don’t like what the property is being used for, buy it.
David and Frank,
With all due respect, there is more to this issue than the immediate question of whether or not to build a mosque on Ground Zero. The issue presents an opportunity to explore and define divergent beliefs and their compatablility with democratic religious pluralism.
And, as you know, the questions concerning the liberty of churches to proclaim opposition to state policies on marriage and abortion are already huge issues. Many church leaders see a day approaching in which they will be forced to abandon their beliefs under pressure from the state.
You both might like reading Rich Lowry’s take. I don’t agree with all he writes, but I think he has some good oints concerning the issue of sensitivity.
http://article.nationalreview.com/439015/the-ground-zero-mosque-not-the-place/rich-lowry
And, welcome back, Frank.
Fay
When the 5-times per day call to prayer (according to Obama, “the most beautiful sound”) wafts over the memorial plaza at Ground Zero…how will you all feel then?
About the same as when the bells of St. Paul’s Chapel waft over Ground Zero. How about you?
OK…Did I just fall into a bizarro universe where I agree with Frank?
I don’t think there should be a mosque free zone, but I would highly approve of a 9/11 memorial zone, similar to a historic preservation zone.
There are about 90 mosques in NYC; 1209 in the USA. Scarcely anyone has protested the erection of any mosque.
During the aftermath of 9/11, not one mosque was disturbed. There was no equivalent of Krystallnacht. No breaking of glass. No rounding up of Muslims. No sabotage of Muslim businesses. No attacks on Muslim homes.
After all, this really is the land of the free. Americans are large hearted and tolerant folks. They truly believe in religious freedom.
But tolerance and sensitivity are a two way street.
I don’t think it too much to ask for some reciprocity of tolerance and sensitivity from those whose are determined to build a mosque on Ground Zero. Why build at that exact spot? Why the insistence? What is the underlying rationale?
Why not move the location elsewhere?
Placing a mosque at Ground Zero is insenitive and unecessarily provocative.
FVoshell – WITH ALL DUE RESPECT – you treatise on the inability of Islam as a main religion in a country to be tolerant of other religions and have a democracy shows absolute ignorance
Obviously you know nothing about Malaysia – wonderful ISLAMIC country – women’s rights – equality – no shairia law – goverment pays for college if you graduate with an A or B your tuition is on the governement….etc
they are determined to be a 1st world nation by 2020 and are well on their way – spent a lot of thime there training thier FEMALE, yes FEMALE!! batallion chiefs – imagine. And you do NOT want to cross those females!! let me tell you!
before you tar the whole Islamic world with your very narrow brush – get the bilnders off first
Apo,
Thank you for that high minded lecture on Maylasia and the joys of living there under a constitution that severely limits religious freedom, proclaims Islam as the offical religion of the country and requires all native Malays to be Muslim. This in a country which is 60% Muslim.
I would like to see your writing on the joys of living in Saudi Arabia–where it is forbidden for anyone to possess a Bible, be a Christian or much less build a church. Now there’s religious freedom for you.
This is to say nothing of the subjection of women to extreme sharia law. Any other Muslim dominated country could be a subject for your writing as well.
So when you take off YOUR blinders, I’d like to see the next lecture.
Meanwhile, I write nothing that Muslims themselves do not propound. I write about what the Prophet and his followers actually believe.
Last post on this subject.
Here’s Star Parker, a black woman who knows something about intolerance, explaining why Americans don’t need this particular lesson in tolerance:
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view/20100809mosque_would_mock_911/
The money for this mosque comes mainly from Saudi Arabia, not Malaysia…home of radical Wahhabism; anti-women, vehemently anti-gay, anti-freedom and intolerant, rigid Sharia law.
Someone should open a gay bar next door. See how tolerant these people really are.
And a NOW office.
Putting the mosque near ground-zero serves a symbolic purpose- it demonstrates the resolve of Islam and the vacillation of the West; the inevitability of the Caliphate and the suicidal naivity of the modernists.
This issue has little to do with the First Amendment and a lot to do with a spit in the face.
Alpha,
Last I checked, the brainwashed wackjobs who hijacked those planes did so in the name of Islam. They killed in the name of Islam. So I’ll post my question again, when the 5-times per day call to prayer wafts over the memorial plaza at Ground Zero…how will you all feel then?
Apo,
The Islamic world deserves to be tarred by a narrow pig-tail hair brush. That is, until they learn how to police their own like the civilized nations of the West…and learn how to wipe their asses, not with their left hands, but with toilet paper.
when the 5-times per day call to prayer wafts over the memorial plaza at Ground Zero…how will you all feel then?
Proud to be an American.
Tool
What will you be ‘proud’ of, ‘alpha?’ That the United States capitulated? That we allowed a mosque to be built by Wahhabists who believe in stoning adulterous women, beheading gays and murdering non-Muslims- all in the name of the ‘Holy Koran?’
I guess some people enjoy being spit upon.
“Kill the Christian, Jew and the Gay Man Too- Woman, Hide thy Face and Hold thy Tongue…Praise Allah!”
New Yorkers would understand. They are some of the most cosmopolitan people on earth, living with and respecting people of all races and creeds, just as the Founders intended. Not like you provincial swine.
Like a real jackass, Alpha would probably be in favor of a Shinto shrine at Pearl Harbor.
Actually, I know quite a few New Yorkers from having attended one of the top cosmopolitan universities in the world. They are all incensed!
Also, why don’t the Muslims have to show respect to those who are deeply and personally offended by their blatantly instigative actions of proposing a mosque adjacent to Ground Zero?
Fact is, Muslims are some of the most intolerant people on earth and the drones in the leftist cult of multiculturalism (Alpha) would rather spite their own injured countrymen, than ever, ever risk offended one of their annoited sacred cows.
New Yorkers would understand. They are some of the most cosmopolitan people on earth, living with and respecting people..
Yeah, respect- drug dealing, murdering, robbing prostitution…
Not like you provincial swine.
Spoken like a true leftist weenie.
“Hi, I’m ‘alpha’…Muslims, feel free to spit in my face”
If ever there were a place where a mosque shouldn’t be, this would be the place.
Okay, first let me welcome Fay back. Now let me say that in this discussion I feel talking about how things are in any other country such as Saudi Arabia, is apples and oranges and only distracts from the real issue. Those countries are sovereign, and are not required to operate according to our Constitution, but we are.
Fay is right, the issue isn’t about this mosque in particular, it is about whether we as anation will honor our founding principles. It is easy to shout about constitutional law when we want our rights protected as Christians, but are we willing to protect the rights of those that would see Christianity destroyed?
Fay I believe that we can allow the Islamist to have their mosque, and protect our form of government. But only by abiding by our form of government.
To those who have pointed out the treatment of muslim women by their husbands and fathers, well we have seen that behavior here, and we have delt with it the same way that we would if a Christian or a Jew had committed the crime. That is by dealing out the law equally. The countries that have had problems with muslim communities demanding their own courts, have had these problems because they allowed their rule of law to be sacrificed for tolerence. What I am saying is that we can be tolerant of their religion and their being here, as long as they don’t break our laws. Laws that have been passed based on our Constitution.
We have seen many times in our history that this nation has had to be tolerant of those we may have hated or mistrusted.
Now I ask a question of those who say this mosque is too close to the site of the WTC. How far away is okay? And who in this wide country do you feel should have the power to decide. You? Me? Maybe we could find a KKK chapter to be incharge of approving permits for all future mosque.
Let me be clear. I too find it offensive. I too am moved to wonder why here? I too remember that clear September day when the towers came down. I remember the fear I felt when I couldn’t reach my wife by phone. I remember the anger I felt the first time and every time since that I see a shot of the planes crashing into those towers and them falling. I will never forget that day.
I also remember the pride I felt as I saw the out pouring of aid, the way the nation came together. I remember the Flags.
This nation cannot allow ourselve to become that which we despise. Many here have pointed out the intolerance of the muslims, they have done so in an attempt to justify behaving the same way. I say we are better than that. I say that if we give into our base feeling on this issue it means that we have no faith in our system of governance.
And I will say one other thing, as an American I wanted to bomb the living hell out of someone on Sept 12th. As a Christian I am told to turn the other cheek. This is the intersection of government and faith that we come to and must find a compromise. We must be able to reason that not all muslims are our enemies. But we can never forget that many of our enemies are muslims.
This may actually be the best time for we as a nation to pray to God for guidance. We as Christians may need to ask, what would Jesus tell us to do?
If the mosque is actually built, and I doubt they’ll find the laborers to build it, merely condemn the property under eminent domain, and turn it into a national park. No First Amendment violations.
This would have to be done under a Republican administration, not BO and his pro-Muslim sycophants.
New York City HAS a Republican administration, endorsed by “Mayor Noun + Verb + 9/11″ Giuliani himself.
The federal administration, moron…’national park.’
Should things play-out in an unseemly way, New Yorkers, with the help of others for sure (except rats like Alpha), will find a way to make life hell for those who own, operate and attend this mosque.
No Alpha…last I checked Mayor Bloomie became an Independent who spent several million dollars of his own money to get re-elected. Whether former Mayor Giuliani, or a mere block-captain for that matter, endorsed him is beside the point. Politics is all about, ‘what have you done for me lately’…and Bloomie has come down on the wrong side of this one. How can he look those members of the NYPD and FDNY in the face and tell them its ‘ok’?
The federal administration, moron…’national park.’
Sorry if I failed to grasp the full extent of your crazy scheme for Republicans to seize land from a religious site in Manhattan. My bulls**t processing filters were on overload yesterday.
Next time, try reading instead of hyperventilating, cupcake.
“Kill the Christian, Jew and the Gay Man Too…Woman, Hide thy Face and Hold thy Tongue…..Praise Allah!”
WOW – Rick and Que Pasa – you really are ignorant rubes!!
how many Saudi families have you lived with?? how many Muslim families have you actually interacted with for long periods of time?? – few to NONE I would bet, based on your obvious hatred
as for voshell – obviously you missed the part where I mentioned that the Malay people have female battalion chiefs – the American Fire Service has few (try Delaware for example, does not have ONE!!) – if that’s the subjugation of women – bring it on
I have lived with Muslims families I have been blessed to live all over the world for long periods of time in various places…I have had the honor orf a high ranking member of the Saudi elite cook a traditional meal for me – not his wife HIM!! in gratitude.. to me, a woman (now you know gender)
I spoke with them about spousal abuse, rape, women’s rights (he an intelligence officer in the military – she a math professor) and learned quite a lot – and one thing I observed – trusst me – SHE ran that family with an iron fist – not him – SHe made the deision to marry him -she was not forced into the marriage – I have seen few American women dress down their husbands like she did and it cracked me up everytime she did it too!! And he was always an officer and a gentleman – SHARIA law – yeah right!!
My family does a lot of business with the Middle East and always are treated with the utmost respect, kindness and hospitality.
are there extremeists – sure – just like the extremeist christian right here that makes me want to puke every time they open their filthy mouths – the Islamic extremists make the moderate Muslims want to puke too.
You just don’t get it because this is something so far outside your understanding or desire to understand…if you really wanted to know about this you would contact them – go talk to them and learn from that conversation – instead of letting the minority extremists and the talking parrots in Faux news make your mind up for you
BTW – the most beautiful gift I received is the symbol of the Saudi royal family ( it was a gift of gratitude for my assistance while the family was here – studying at the War College) – and I wear it with pride!!
and seeing as I do not espouse Christianity – or any organized religion – living in Saudi Arabia wouldn’t bother me a bit – as I currently do not own a Bible and don’t waste my Sunday in a church. I can talk to my Creator all by myself, anytime I want – an intermediary really doesn’t do much for me.
Instead, I try to live by the teaching of good humble men – whether they be Jesus, Buddah, Ghandi etc and rather, every day of my life for the past 15 years, volunteer my time to make this world better for my family and even people like you.
I live how I feel-and I say what I think and sometimes I’m rude – oh well – I don;t need some Bible-thumping, money-grubbing, self-styled hypocrite (read Jim Baker) telling me all is forgiven if I write a check –
But if you need an outside entitiy to be your conscience – to tell you how to live – to be your moral compass because you cannot do it yourself – and if that’s what makes you feel better – rock on brother.
Just keep your “moral and values” out of my ife and THAT is exactly what this discussion is all about – freedom of expression as a basic tenant and precept of this nation!
Apo spills much ink…says nothing. Hire an editor.
If the radical Muslims make the moderates want to puke…WHY, OH WHY don’t they, won’t they do anything about them?
That, sir, is the question.
Because the federal government usurping land to prevent a religious site from being built is illegal, unconstitutional and quite frankly immoral. I don’t like what they are doing, and I think there are ways to stop it that don’t involve the government(or violence as some people seem to want) but things like this are what makes this country great. A couple jerks try to make us go back on our principles by shoving our face in the mud of 9/11 and we just stand there, take it and keeping right on trucking like strong, proud people we are. If we start letting them get to us by doing things like this we have lost the war on terror.
Thank you George for getting it.