Pandora Comment Rescue
Oct 22nd, 2009 by Tennessee Walker
Thanks to the assistance of Pandora I have raised my lazy blogger self out of oblivion. I originally posted about voting procedures in North Carolina on this site. The comments meandered through every conceivable Constitutional Argument one can imagine. Near the end of 54 comments about we drifted into a discussion on sexism.
Reading this I posed this question on the comments page.
“My question to Paula and Cookie (and Pandora if you are still out there).
Has the Feminist movement, which has said for decades, that the only differences between male and female is internal plumbing, helped or hurt the advancement of women???
I would really like to see some honest expression on this as I have heard from a wide variety of smart, honest, attractive women that they believe that the LIBERAL Feminist movement has been a negative for them.”
Pandora responded instantly and Cookie replied quickly as well. They wanted to discuss this issue. I am not so stupid as to ignore this very estrogen motivated message.
My take is this.
My Father told me at the age of 6, (after I beat the crap out of my 6 year old girl neighbor. Trust me she deserved it), that raising a hand to any Woman was dishonorable, disrespectful, and unmanly. My Father made it clear that any beat down I did on ANY girl would get the same treatment on me from him.
I thought that this was the most unfair thing I had ever heard. However, since my old man was a former Golden Gloves Boxer and I was smart enough at the age of 6 not to argue, I kept my mouth shut.
Such are the ways of men.
The current Feminism movement absolves young men of any bad behavior vis a vis women. Knock a girl up and the state pays. Women and their children are the responsibilities of the state.
The days of My Dad where men were individually responsible for the care of Women and Children for whom they made a sacred commitment to are gone.
We have replaced that individual commitment with a commitment from an unconcerned and omnipotent state.
My Father would have ostracized any man who dumped his woman of 30 years for some trophy wife with jiggly boobs.
But now that we are all equal and the only difference between men and women are the plumbing changes then all bets are off. Any guy can dump his wife for a new trophy babe without any social consequence. This is the new cultural dynamic.
I see how this helps guys. Just how does the current situation help women is beyond me.
I don’t necessarily think that the feminist movement has helped all women. I will meet women and when they ask me what I do for a living, I tell them that I volunteer for a non-profit. I get this unenthusiastic “well, that’s nice,” as if somehow something is wrong with me that I am not a Supermom with a career or that I haven’t pursued more.
I am not sure us guys really have any standing to comment on whether feminism has been a plus or a minus for women.
All I know is the women in my life seem to be strong and independent enough to be successful in all but the most medieval environments.
Now excuse me, I have to wash the dishes and put the kids to bed.
Feminism must be working if noman has to wash the dishes and put the kids to bed.
It depends upon which strain of feminism. On strain focused on reclaiming the natural rights of women which were being eroded. The other strain focused on contradicting human nature and trying to make men and women carbon copies of each other on one hand while blasting men with the other as pigs, oppressors, and worse. The first strain, the Anthony, Stanton, Truth, and Chapman Catt did a great deal for all Americans and many around the world. The the other strain was represented by Steinem (“I don’t breed well in captivity”.) , Yard (“I grew up with that whole devaluation of myself because I was female”.), and Dworkin (who proclaimed “all penetrative intercourse by its nature is violent”) who were not representative of the values and lives of most women. They got in the way and pulled Feminism into controversy and disrepute.
When’s the last time you played golf with a woman who insisted on hitting from the men’s tee? You know, just to be equal? Nope, didn’t think so.
Rex nails it. Imagine if the ERA actually passes. Legally, there would be no more red tees on golf courses (well, at least the public ones). No longer would there be (or, at least, should there be) separate men’s and women’s tournaments (golf, tennis) nor the WNBA nor separate men’s and women’s events in the Olympics, no more maternity leave ….
Etc.
I really doubt women would want that.
Legally, there would be no more red tees on golf courses (well, at least the public ones).
Of course there would… both tees would be open to men and women alike.
And public health care doesn’t outlaw private health care either.
Why do wingnuts always get this concept wrong?
Why? Simple — because the government consistently blurs the line between public and private. (Though your point is well taken on the access to both tees.) Need I give examples, noman?
I don’t have time to answer this question right now, but did you know that in Italy men get maternity leave as well.
Also, I can’t believe we’ve reduced this question to sports. What a bunch of guys!
Well hey, pan — equal means “equal!”
Men should be able to play in the WNBA; the very term ‘Women’s’ is discriminatory.
I was born after the women’s movement, so while I can’t speak about the fight, I can speak about the benefits and the battles left to fight.
To me, feminism was about choices previously denied. It was about the choice to attend a university rather than be herded into a secretarial course at Goldy Beacom (which had evolved as well). To be a doctor instead of being told as a woman you had to be a nurse. (Nursing, another field that has evolved past stereotypes.)
It’s about the choice of staying at home or going to work. And, yes, as a stay at home mom I’ve run into idiots – on both sides. Yes, some career women look down their noses at stay at home moms, but that snobbery is equally matched by some stay at home mom’s holier than thou attitude. So basically there are jerks on both sides.
The beginning of the school year my daughter had trouble with math and was told by a boy in her class that it okay because she was a girl. Note to the parents of that boy: STFU. (BTW, she’s kicking butt in math now.)
But it’s statements like these that slither through our society and stifle potential. And that’s really what feminism is all about to me. Potential and Choice.
Yes, there are radical statements by some feminists. How about Conservatives? You guys okay with your entire movement being judged by G. Gordon Liddy’s statement on Sotomayor’s menstrual cycle?
One of the things that annoys me about my mother is how she kills herself preparing a dinner and then excuses my father from everything but eating. God, I love that man, but when he sits down and bellows “Salt?” and she jumps up I want to scream. Ah… but that’s generational, and I get it. Wanna know what else is funny? I got my feminist ideals from my father.
Feminism, to me, isn’t about elevating one sex above the other. It’s about partnership.
I actually have more to say, but I have a cheesecake in the oven – no sh*t.
Well said. I would say though don’t scream, your mother is empowered by serving just as your father is when he serves her. If he mows the lawn, inspects the cars, and takes out the trash and she fixes dinner that is called division of labor.
Liberals want everyone to do the same thing because it is fair. That ignores individuality and efficient division of labor. In someone else’s house he cooks better and she cuts grass, takes out garbage, and inspects the cars.
Love this nonsense: “The current Feminism movement absolves young men of any bad behavior vis a vis women. Knock a girl up and the state pays. Women and their children are the responsibilities of the state.
The days of My Dad where men were individually responsible for the care of Women and Children for whom they made a sacred commitment to are gone.”
Are you kidding me? Absolves? And if your Dad told you that men, before DNA testing, stepped up to plate… Bwhahahaha!
For the record, I am a conservative. Now that’s out of the way, my grandparents’ generation was the one when you knocked up a gal, you married her and stayed married, usually making more kids. My parents’ generation was one of divorce being acceptable, forcing the mother to work to make ends meet. My generation requires both parents work to make ends meet, or to have be middle or higher income family so that we have more expendable income for extras for the children such as sports, or dance, or some of the nicer things we didn’t have. I could probably be a stay-at-home mom and we could live on my husband’s income, and some days I wish I were, but then we’d have to give up a lot of things we have and I don’t want to do that. I didn’t have a lot growing up, and I like the extra income. Plus I want to help with the kids’ college which my mother and absent father couldn’t do.
Over the last generation, more women have entered the workplace. No longer are they content to be in the secretarial pool. We see that we can do the management jobs just as good – if not better than the men. However, women are not always viewed in the same manner as men are.
Evan touched on it a bit in the other thread. We are seen as needing maternity leave, and needing extra time off to take of sick children. That’s not fair – we were lucky enough on the draw to blessed with the ability to bear children and shouldn’t be used against us in the workplace. It’s also why employers are not allowed to ask about familial status anymore.
Let me add another that he didn’t say, but I bet he thinks it: we are more emotional. I believe sometimes we are viewed as making hormonally-based decisions.
I think we are more intuitive. Able to see the human effect of business decisions. I think that is a feature, not a bug of our physical make up. Business decisions don’t always have to be about the bottom line. There are larger consequences. Sometimes that gets lost and I think it baffles men. Maybe that’s the ‘mom’ part of us.
I want to address Pandora’s #14 comment. She is absolutely right. The downfall of the American family is a direct result of the government. When welfare, section 8, etc. was enacted, the government wouldn’t help families that had a father/male in the picture because they would require them to take responsibility. The end result is large number of single-parent (mom) families with no dad around. We have seen what happens when there is no strong male influence to teach boys how to be men. More kids = more government help.
I’m a strong propenent of reducing societal welfare. You have the kids, you take care of them. But if we cut welfare, the children suffer, and that’s not fair to them – they didn’t ask for their situation. How do we make the welfare mother take responsibility for what they created instead of demanding the government take care of them? How do we stop men from impregnating multiple women, then disappearing? That may be another topic for another day.
I have strong thoughts on that, and would they probably raise a lot of ire. Lol!
Paula, I don’t think we’re on the same page here… (Psst, I’m a big ol’ liberal!
) My point is that the men of the “past” were not more socially responsible than the men of today, and there were plenty of women left “holding the baby.” It was never the “wasn’t life good in the Ozzie and Harriet/Leave It To Beaver (make believe/never existed) days.”
Pandora, you are right. I misread your intentions in the post. Sorry about that! My point is that two or three generations ago, the government didn’t take care of single baby momma’s. Society made it shameful to be in that situation and families took care of their own. You’re right – it happened regardless. I’ve read the Scarlet Letter.
) Now, it’s perfectly okay to spread the legs and bring children into the world when the mother can’t secure a home and bring in income to care for the child because the government will do it for them. Single motherhood with unknown fathers is not only okay and not embarrasing, but gives them a ticket to support. Unwed mothers in certain demographics are upward of 70%. Most of them are in poverty and many stay that way in generational welfare. What would they do different if the government wasn’t there to provide housing, medicaid, and food stamps?
It was about the choice to attend a university rather than be herded into a secretarial course…
Blah, blah, blah. My grandmother was college educated (Smith); she was born in 1901.
More feminist crybaby bullshit.