Liberty v. Mosque
Aug 17th, 2010 by Frank Knotts
Rush Limbaugh and others are attacking anyone who argues the legal right of the Mosque, as being liberals. I personally believe that those who tout their consevative creds., should be defending the right to build this Mosque.
When we talk about the legal right of the Mosque, without the emotions, then you must understand that it is not the Mosque that is protected, it is your church, it is your synagogue, your Hindu temple, it is your personal sanctuary at home.
If we allow this attack on the Constitution by these Muslims, then we will not be defending just the freedom of religion, we will be defending the very Constitution its self.
We have waited since 9/11 for the next big attack. We expected more attacks with planes. Thank God, they haven’t come.
Many people have been asking,” why must they build the mosque so close to the site of WTC?” Because this is the next big attack.
They have killed our fellow citizens making many doubt their country’s ability to protect them, since 9/11. Now they are attacking our form of government. They are saying to the world, does Liberty work?
By demanding to build on this spot, so close to WTC, they are challenging us to show we believe in our government. If we do not defend the Constitution then we fail. We will have shown that our system does not work without faith in our government.
The difference between the radical Muslims and our system is Liberty. We allow people the right to choose. We can have faith in God and country, but we are able to separate the two, the Constitution gives us that right in the First Amendment. If we deny that right to any citizen based on religion, then we deny it to all at some point. It is the only possible outcome if we block the Mosque, based on religion.
That is exactly why the Muslims chose this site. This is their next big attack, not on our physical being, not even on our fear, but on the very fabric of our nation. If we allow them to pull at this thread, we allow them to unravel the security blanket that our Constitution was meant to be!
We can stop this by pushing the thread back in, and saying to them yes, your religion is allowed to be a part of our patch quilt. But if you become a rend in the fabric, by breaking our laws, then you will be “mended” in equal fashion as any citizen would be.
Rush Limbaugh and his echo chamber of small market talk shows are attempting to use this issue, as leverage against the Democrats in general, and President Obama in particular. And while no one wants, President Obama out of office, or the Democrats out of power, and the moderates of the GOP removed, more than me, we can not sacrifice the security of the Constitution, for the power of office.
Limbaugh said that “not one thing changes about Islam if this Mosque isn’t built”, about this, he is correct, it would be the United States that would be changed. We would go from a nation of Liberty, to a nation of lawlessness.
If the founding principles are found to be wanting, then every law that was created, based on these principles, will be found to be wanting also. For if the foundation of our system i.e., the Constitution, is not strong enough, then it will crumble and the house shall fall. For a house built on sand can not stand.
Rush and Co. can bloviate all they want about the legal aspect of this issue.
However, the key point is: Should they build it?
Thus far the political pressure from the citizenry and elected officials says ‘no’. Eventually this will be enough to make it go away…or at least several blocks north. It would have helped if our Dhimmi-in-Chief framed his Iftar speech in this manner…you know, like an intelligent leader understanding of America and her sympathies would.
You sure surprised me with this one, Frank. Way to go – on the end results, at least. The reasoning and rationale is a bit wacky, but hey, there’s more than one way to skin a cat.
Que Pasa, if you look over your left shoulder, I believe that is the point of this post passing you by.
Frank, I agree with you 100% regarding their constitutional right to build this mosque in the same vein that any religion should be free to build a house of worship. That doesn’t mean that we have to behave as quislings carrying their bricks and mortar for them. I would use every legal means possible to throw up roadblocks. The Arab world only respects strength and can’t be accommodated as the Obamanation is wont to do on every occasion possible. As tough as times are, they should have to search far and wide for design firms. The building trades unions own Manhattan. They are quick to wrap themselves in the American flag, mom, and apple pie. Boycotting this project is a chance to show they mean it. Let the Arab world know that if you want to play in our sandbox, you need to know the game. Our government needs to be investigating this imam, not subsidizing his fundraising. If all else fails, throw the job to Don Corleone. It worked during WWII against German saboteurs on the New York docks. We’re in a dirty nasty war that isn’t going to be won following the Marquess of Queensberry rules. It shouldn’t be easier to build a mosque at Ground Zero than a Walmart in NCCO.
The Mosque is a bad idea, no thanks.
Frank: I’ve listened to Limbaugh the last couple days and I’ve heard that he, like many other conservatives, DO believe in the constitutional right to build this mosque. The issue is SHOULD it be built. IOW, an appeal to those who will build it to reconsider their decision.
Maybe you heard something I didn’t.
Conservatives down here in Sussex County say that if you own the land, you should be able to do whatever you want with it.
By that logic, the same should apply to this Islamic center.
Throwing up roadblocks is just more gummint regulation, as Sam Wilson would say!
Frank, I can see you have taken the philosophical high road, and that is commendable, but the problem with the mosque is more of practical one. The decision to put the mosque there is reckless and it may lead to civil unrest. Keeping the piece in any city is a top priority.
There are two issues at stake: one is legal and the other is a matter of prudential restraint.
To put it another way, it is a matter of law versus grace. Law would say build it because it can be built according to the legality of the matter.
Compassion, sensitivity and grace would say build it elswhere.
I think law will probably win, but I also think the victory of law will be a pyrrhic victory.
One very good thing will be a result: Examination of the Muslim faith and its tenets.
Along with Charles Krauthammer’s piece, the linked article has some of the best observations I’ve yet read.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/17/AR2010081704401.html
I haven’t heard anyone question their right to build the mosque. The First Amendment makes that rather obvious. However, most Americans question the wisdom of so doing. To many of us, it is a slap-in-the-face.
The ‘next time it may be you’ argument is, to me, frivolous and irrelevant.
To put it another way, it is a matter of law versus grace. Law would say build it because it can be built according to the legality of the matter.
Compassion, sensitivity and grace would say build it elswhere.
New Yorkers will best determine what is “sensitivity and grace” in their neighborhoods. It is not up to “Tea Party Nation” to define sensitivity and grace. I can’t think of anyone less qualified.
It is a local zoning issue and is up to New Yorkers. And not even all New Yorkers, but only Manhattanites. And not even all Manhattanites, but the Lower Manhattan Community Board specifically.
The police and firefighters are the loudest mouths, but they mostly live in the other boroughs and Long Island.
I thought you guys believed in deference to local control, or is that just a belief of convenience?
It is a local zoning issue and is up to New Yorkers. And not even all New Yorkers, but only Manhattanites.
Right. Everyone else should just shut up — especially since the area was the site of the deadliest foreign attack on American soil in history. American, not Manhattan.
American, not Manhattan.
Right, because everyone knows Manhattan isn’t in the Real America.
HUBE TO NEW YORK: DROP DEAD!!!
It is a local zoning issue and is up to New Yorkers. And not even all New Yorkers, but only Manhattanites..
That’s like saying the 911 attack was against ‘only Manhattanites.” In other words, an absurdity.
Since we all stipulate that the Muslims have the ‘right’ to build the mosque, the only real question is, should they? If the Muslim community truly seeks reconciliation and understanding, the prudent course would be to build it elsewhere.
the only real question is, should they?
That question is up to New Yorkers.
If you don’t like the way New York does its community planning, you don’t have to visit. You will not be missed.
Right, because everyone knows Manhattan isn’t in the Real America.
That’s what you said, not me.
I mean, check it: Arizona passing a federally-mirroring immigration law is … a federal matter; however, an issue dealing with a foreign attack on New York is … merely a local matter. Check.
I’m sure alpha would claim that, say, South Carolina flying the Confederate flag over its state house is “a local matter” and that African-Americans who come from all over the country to protest it should “butt out.”
Both are American issues, neither should be interfered with by the Federal Government. It is simple, the Confederate flag shouldn’t be flying and the Mosque shouldn’t be built. Both however are legal, and it is up to the people in those areas and Americans all over the country to peacefully state we don’t think it is acceptable and find a way to end these things. The people are the solution to this problem, not the government.
Except my comment is lighter and quicker than your overly verbose posting.
That question is up to New Yorkers.
Today’s (Wed.) Sienna Univ. poll of New York voters;
#1) ‘Do the developers have the right to build the mosque?’
64% yes
#2) ‘Should the build the mosque?’
63% No
Okay, let’s ask all New Yorkers, not just Bloomberg and Nadler.
Today’s (Wed.) Sienna Univ. poll of New York voters
That is a STATEWIDE poll. It includes the same rubes who nearly put that teabag Hoffman in the House (NY-23). Land use decisions in lower Manhattan are none of their business.
The only poll that matters is the vote within Community Board #1 representing Lower Manhattan, and other relevant LOCAL authorities such as the Landmarks Commission.
Last I heard, New York is in New York.
Stuff it, Frank.
You’re trying to sound holier than thou and you’re shouting from the back of the turnip truck.
We don’t want this thing and you sound like a dumb liberal trying to be all noble and such.
It’s simple….maybe the gubmint shouldnt be banning this thing but workers and firemen and police and protesting citizens can make life miserable enough to discourage even the most tenacious.
We get this out here in la la land and frankly you sound like you want to join the Ruling Class.
A clarification: When I made the distinction between law and grace, I was referring to Muslims who wish to build the mosque. Technically, they have the legal right, but the compassion they ascribe to their God would dictate they should refrain from building it.
By now, I think we all need a laugh. Stella Paul’s column on the GZ mosque provides one.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/08/so_what_happens_if_the_ground.html
That’s IF they care to show any compassion. Where have Muslims in recent days/years/decades shown compassion for those not of their belief-system? And that, in a nutshell, is the problem with this mosque being developed by supposedly “moderate” adherents.
Thanks for that funny link to the AT article Fvoshell. It IS funny.
Below, I got an interesting link…
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20081029/BUSINESS/302158245/1005
It’s from 2008 and it’s a story about Bloomberg LLC starting up a hub in Dubai. There’s speculation that this might be why Bloomie’s trying to placate his Arab buddies. Follow the money, folks….follow the money and know that the Dems are getting a plenty from the sons of camels all across the planet. Especially that empty suit in the Oval Office.
My daughter, who I self-proclaim the benchmark as the busy American carrying this country on their backs, raising children, living law-abiding lives….way too busy for politics like us more boring political junkees….is all in a twitter over this mosque. She’s even taken to putting up Facebook posts about it and now she’s furious at Nancy Pelosi cause she thinks Nancy Pelosi is after her.
Yesterday my daughter couldn’t have told you who Pelosi was if you held a gun to her head.
Since she’s on a roll, she who could never really get a grip on my anger at these self-serving politicians who want to take away from my precious granddaughter, HER daughter, the wonderful country that I knew….well it was a TEACHABLE moment.
“Don’t you think Kaitlyn has a right to grow up in a country where its own leaders don’t threaten her? Once upon a time a Speaker of the House who threatened the country’s own citizens would have been run out of town on a rail.”
For those who don’t know, the fine, fine Nancy Pelosi…who I used to play with as a child ask me about it sometime….came out and said she was going to investigate those who are financing those AGAINST the mosque. No, it wasn’t a mistake…Nancy Pelosi meant that as a slam against the pubs but it includes such as me and the lot of you. As an aside, I wish Frank, who I do really like and admire, but I wish he’d spend a moment or two defending us who are so threatened by the third in line for this country’s presidency cause God knows he’s been preaching us deaf about this stupid mosque.
Daughter pauses. Damn, the girl’s going out and buying a gun she’s so scared. She’s begging me not to go to next week’s Beck march for God’s sake I sometimes find it hard to believe she’s got my genes. I ain’t afraid of Al Sharpton.
I tell little granddaughter that if her teacher ever asks her to stand up and sing about Barack Obama that she should not disobey her teacher but she should tell her parents about it right away.
“I will sing it real low,” five year old Kaitlyn tells me and I’m about to shoot everybody got my heirs so upset. Sweet child, she really said that….she’d sing it low.
Poiint being, this mosque thing is not going to die. It’s about pride and sentiment and love of country and a certain solidarity we all share here in America. The Ruling Class…they don’t get it. Well they’re not part of that solidarity at any rate.
I pray that my daughter keeps her courage but she’s now scared Nancy Pelosi’s after her.
You can’t make this stuff up.
Damn, Pat. Thank your god the real America isn’t like your family.
What are you guys all so afraid of?
Oh, and what should we do with the mosque that is 4 blocks from G0, and has been there since 1985. Idiots. Complete idiots.
I guess we should bronze the entire vacant Burlington Coat Factory, because it has something to do with a tragic event. Idiots, what has happened to my America? It is now filled with hysterical, fraidycat idiots.
What if I bought the vacant building and wanted to put in place a plan that includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare services, art exhibitions, bookstore, culinary school, and a food court? Would that be more respectful?
How about I open the 911 memorial strip bar there instead? Which one is more offensive?
Just what the Socialist-Democrats needed; another national issue where they’re on the wrong side. Few Americans deny the legality of the plan; but, even fewer Americans believe it is prudent- or right- to build it.
Harry Reid had the good sense to distance himself from the party orthodoxy. I guess he knows when he’s being spit at.
The real America should be just like Meatball.
“What are you guys all so afraid of?”
Nothing, pissed off would be a better way to describe it.
The ‘real America’ has spoken- and they’re against the mosque. Of course, liberals only feign a love of democracy. In reality, they’re oligarchs.
Oh, and what should we do with the mosque that is 4 blocks from G0, and has been there since 1985. Idiots. Complete idiots.
Oh, let’s see — b/c it’s existed for 16 years before the 9/11 attacks, maybe?
Idiot. Complete idiot.
what has happened to my America? It is now filled with hysterical, fraidycat idiots.
No, it’s filled with hypocritical a-holes like yourself who’d be here in a microsecond complaining about “intolerant” Americans if, say, some group wanted to build a gay bar near a mosque. Oh, right, the complaints have already started! http://colossus.mu.nu/archives/304626.php
(Corrected for closed tags)
Oh, and what should we do with the mosque that is 4 blocks from G0, and has been there since 1985. Idiots. Complete idiots.
Oh, let’s see — b/c it’s existed for 16 years before the 9/11 attacks, maybe?
Idiot. Complete idiot.
what has happened to my America? It is now filled with hysterical, fraidycat idiots.
No, it’s filled with hypocritical a-holes like yourself who’d be here in a microsecond complaining about “intolerant” Americans if, say, some group wanted to build a gay bar near a mosque. Oh, right, the complaints have already started! http://colossus.mu.nu/archives/304626.php
“..what has happened to my America? It is now filled with hysterical, fraidycat idiots…meatball
Who’s ‘afraid’ or ‘hysterical,’ other than Pelosi, who has demanded an ‘investigation’ as to who is ‘funding the opposition’ to the mosque.
Remember all those ‘good Muslims’ around the world, who cheered on 911 as they watched Americans burn to death or jump-out of 100-story windows? They cheered!
It’s people like ‘meatball’ who would let those bastards spit in America’s face. Screw ‘em.
Some of you people frighten me. I have read your comments in the past where you crow about property rights and personal Liberty, all the while quoting the Constitution as a shield against tyranny. And now you would gladly trample upon the very document because of your emotions.
Are you people actually reading the article? I said the muslims want to be denied the right to build the mosque, they want this to play out on the world stage, they want it to go to court and be the news cycle for as long as possible. They are attacking the Constitution. If we fail to defend it by upholding it, then they will have shown Liberty to be weak.
For those who think that New York City or New York state can now pass a law to block this mosque, I suggest you find a copy of the Constitution and read it for the first time. The First Amendment guarantees the freedom of religion, the Constitution also states that no state or local government can create a law that controdicts the Constitution or federal laws and that the courts of the states must uphold this. Due to all the heated rhetoric over this, it is clear that if NYC passes any kind of law for zoning that did not apply to all religious buildings, then the mosque would have legal recourse.
Now let me address something else that I have been hearing a lot lately. There are a lot of people saying that if the mosque is built, they believe it will be burned down or blown up (of course the cowards saying this aren’t advocating for this,oh certainly not!), those people make me want to puke. How anyone who says they love this country and its founding principles can even utter such things escapes me. That mosque, if built , should be the safest place in the nation. If built it should be surrounded by twenty four hour police surveillance, this would protect us, but also the muslims. If that mosque were to burn or be blown up, it would become a show piece for the radicals. I would not put it past a radical muslim group blowing it up themselves. And since so many “GOOD, FREEDOM LOVING AMERICANS” have said they would be glad to see it happen, how hard would it be for the muslims to portray it as an attack on Islam by Americans?
Finally, to all of those talking about how the NYFD might respond to a call at this location. Some have said they might take their time getting there, be in no hurry to put out a fire. Every fireman in NYC should be insulted by such statements, for people to say that they have no integrity, that the NYFD would risk the lives of innocent people, be they in the mosque or the surrounding area, is the lowest form of agitation. My brother was a fireman, and I believe he would have gone into a burning building to drag out his worste enemy, not for the enemy, but because of his own integrity. Because we are human beings, not animals. The radical muslims are animals, they kill without remorse. We will not defeat them by becoming more like them. And we cannot defend the Constitution, by ignoring it. We can stand behind it for protection, we can stand on it, as our basis of society, but we cannot stand infront of it, we cannot put our personal emotions before the rule of law, if we do, then we have lost everything this nation was founded upon.
And to Pat Fish, well my dear, you can say I am being Holier than thou, I say I am being true to myself and my faith . God Bless.
And Rick, I have to ask, since you said,”The ‘real America’ has spoken- and they’re against the mosque. Of course, liberals only feign a love of democracy. In reality, they’re oligarchs.” Do you believe that I am only “feigning” a love of democracy? Do you think that within the majority of Americans who are against the mosque, that there is majority that has even read the Consitution, or that even cares about the lasting ramifications of blocking this mosque? Or are they simply being played by those who would take political advantage of the issue, the Limbaughs and the wanna-be Limbaughs, and the results be damned.
Can’t you comprehend the concept that it’s not always prudent to exercise a right? Nobody is saying that they can’t build a mosque; we are saying that they shouldn’t.
“Nobody is saying that they can’t build a mosque; we are saying that they shouldn’t.”
Of course this is the dodge. From the same guy who was just fantasizing about a Republican administration seizing the mosque site under eminent domain.
See, Republican instincts are always for the authoritarian. It’s just in this case your instinct bumps uncomfortably against the Constitution.
For anchor babies, wingnuts say the Constitution is wrong and the Fourteenth Amendment should be repealed.
But repealing the First Amendment (or at least saying so out loud) is a bridge too far even for wingnuts. So instead you fall back on the dodge:
“Nobody is saying that they can’t build a mosque; we are saying that they shouldn’t.”
A ‘dodge?’ Are you saying that ‘can’t’ and ‘shouldn’t’ are synonymous?
No. I am saying that you have said both things.
Obviously, I have said both things. That’s because having a right and exercising that right are two different things.
……………………………………………………………………….
And Rick, I have to ask, since you said,”The ‘real America’ has spoken- and they’re against the mosque. Of course, liberals only feign a love of democracy. In reality, they’re oligarchs.” Do you believe that I am only “feigning” a love of democracy?
Only if you consider yourself to be a liberal.
Do you think that within the majority of Americans who are against the mosque, that there is majority that has even read the Consitution
I haven’t heard many say they don’t have the Constitutional right to build it.
..or that even cares about the lasting ramifications…
What ‘lasting ramifications?’ A Muslim shrine on Ground Zero?
…of blocking this mosque?
‘Blocking’ by whom? I simply want the Muslims to come to their senses, and reconsider.
Or are they simply being played by those who would take political advantage of the issue, the Limbaughs and the wanna-be Limbaughs, and the results be damned.
Well, there is a political component, but it’s secondary. The simple fact is that the majority of Americans don’t want a mosque at that location.
“Kill the Christian, Jew and the Gay Man Too- Woman, Hide thy Face and Hold thy Tongue…Praise Allah!
Rick says,”The simple fact is that the majority of Americans don’t want a mosque at that location.” Thank heavens we are not subject to mob rule.
And Rick this whole point of expecting the muslims to come to their senses, again, get the point, they will build it there for the very reasons you and others have listed. You play into their hands, if you pressure them to build elswhere.
You and others are now asking them nicely to not build there, and when they say they will anyway, then what? They will insist on building there, they want the confrintation. We are fools for giving it to them.