Socialism is ‘Marxism.’ ‘Socialism’ leads, incrementally, toward the elimination of private property and the ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’ (requiring, of course, a “vanguard of the dictatorship of the proletariata,” as Lenin put it) envisioned by Marx himself. The ‘heavy, progressive tax on incomes’ and the public school system as a propaganda centers is straight out of the ‘Manifesto.’ If you don’t believe it, fine; but most of us are educated enough to realize that either you don’t know what you’re talking about, or, you are sympathetic to socialism, or both.

In reality, Mr. “think123″, you obviously have not done a great deal of “thinking” (or reading) for that matter about our founding fathers. You claim we’ve been redistributing the wealth in our country from the beginning which is an absolute falsehood. In fact, nearly every one (including I might add, Alexander Hamilton) believed that every man was entitled to his own property and that no bread (read as: assets) should be taken from he that has earned it. Plain and simple the founding fathers, through their writings beginning as early as the mid 18th century clearly laid out their expectation that America would remain a free and independent state with all rights descending from the creator (God, Allah, Buddah, etc.) to the people directly and that the only rights the government had were those which the individuals lent them. This went for local government (who had the majority of the authority), state governments (who had much less but far more than the federal government) and for the Federal government. It was decided that there were some basic needs of any society

1.) Defense/Safety – While each citizen has the right to keep and bear arms in defense of his person, family or property the 18th century showed the imperialist nature of other nations and as a newly formed Republic America needed the states to be United in the Common Defense of the nation. They learned from the Revolutionary War that a standing army while undesireable by many of the “freedom wing” was necessary. It was however to be kept both of sufficient size to deter and/or defeat aggressors and small enough to ensure it could not be used to dominate the local militias.

2.) Justice – The Founders saw that with any new nation a system of laws and regulations must be created. The idea was that Congress would bring the whim of the people to the floor of the House. It was expectated that the floor of the House would produce the craziest of legislation (like this healthcare debacle that I am sure think123 is all in favor of) and would either pass or reject it as the political winds swept through. Why? Because the floor of the House was supposed to be Jr. legislators who were closest to the people and could be their voice. (can anyone say our rep is “close to us”?) It was also expected that the Senate who would be the Sr. and more calm legislators would pass or reject bills that appeared to be Constitutional and within the scope of the federal governments quite limited and defined powers (back then they understood what the word LIMITED meant). The Executive branch was in place to be the figure head of the government. In fact, during the Adams Presidency, there were times when Adams was hardly the one making the “final decisions”. Finally, the security blanket for the people was to be the Supreme Court. They were supposed to review all federal laws (it would take them nearly 25 years of round the clock work just to catch up on all the federal laws written since 2000 not to mention going back to the 1930′s when the Supreme Court stopped being proactive) for Constituionality and to either uphold or repeal them. In fact, in the early years of our nation the Supreme Court was so proactive that it would review each and every law passed by the Congress and would sometimes issue rulings before the President had signed the bill.

3.) Ensure Tranquility – This was designed to go hand in hand with estalblishing Justice and providing for the common defense of the nation. The idea was to deter and supress violent uprisings (like the Revolution itself) within the states. The way it was accomplished was through equal reqresentation to all communities and strict adherence by the government to the system of power established and agreed upon.

How Rights (definded as powers) would transfer:
Creator -> People -> Local/Municpal Government -> County Government -> State Government -> Federal Government

This assured that the PEOPLE of the several states were in fact the gurantors of all rights and privileges that the government enjoyed and that all of these rights and privileges were temporary and defined as specific.

As far as the founders intended:
No government was supposed to take ANYTHING from a private citizen (or privately owned company) except as the law permitted them to do so as a penalty for the comission of a crime (and at that time there were VERY few instances where the government could seize property even for that reason). No government was allowed to force Americans to buy a product to become a citizen.
These are NOT optional, not even by a “society expressing it’s will at the polls”.

“The Veterans Administration, TriCare, Medicare, and Medicaid are not Marxism. They are American inventions time again supported by a free society expressing their will at the polls.” – think123
With regards to TriCare and the VA…please leave things that the people grant to the brave men and women who risk their FREAKING LIVES in the defense of our nation out of this. Not that you would understand what that actually means. Even if you’ve served, it’s clear you didn’t do it willingly or with the reverence that most of the men and women in our military do it with. You really are slime to even bring this up. (and by the way, these programs aren’t even on the RADAR as far as Constituionality and/or fiscal burden)

1.) TriCare and the VA provide services to members of the military and provide an essential service for Constitutionally mandated sectors of our government. I’m FINE with that (in fact, we ought to take this ridiculous overspending on Medicare/Medicaid and send it to the VA so our men and women get proper treatment.

2.) What a ridiculous statement OF COURSE Medicare/Medicaid is Marxism you twit. Good God you are uninformed, now I see why Glenn Beck calls people like you “Idiots” READ A BOOK! (or atleast one whose author doesn’t end with “sky”) (Oh…right and for think123 who is I’m sure scratching his head wondering what I meant…that’s a reference to the many works of men whose last names end in “sky” Saul Alinsky – “Rules for Radicals”, Leon Trotsky (Russian Marxist) and others) Medicare/Medicaid are GOVERNMENT CONTROL of the healthcare system. They’re also fiscal drains on our economy and the unfunded liabilities from them have already indebted our children/grandchildren (not that you give a DAMN about anyone but yourself) to the government for decades. The Federal Government has used Medicare/Medicaid to artifically influence the cost of healthcare overall. They have consistently kept private insurance and healthcare costs high by driving down the price the government will pay for services rendered. The government also controls medical patents, drug enforcement and it’s advisory boards have become litle more than rationing bodies designed to shift costs from one sector to another. Not to mention that the Marxist influences of union bosses (yes, unions are influenced by Marxist thought…don’t believe me? Read up on what the leadership of SEIU, the AMA, the NEA and the AFL-CIO have been influenced by) have permeated the healthcare delivery field and rendered nearly a quarter of our nations caregivers as union slaves.

Then again most of this is moot because like the good little liberal idiot you are, you’ll blame it on Bush… Rush… Beck… “right wing talk radio”…”conservatives”…Fox News or some other faceless entity that you think everyone else hates the way you do. It’s ok to be a Marxist think123…seriously, I’m FINE with disliking people based on their political ideologies. I’m OK with there being people in America that I simply don’t like, don’t agree with and spend time arguing against. That’s perfectly fine. I’m even ok with LOSING that argument…however, where it gets personal and when I lose respect for that person is when the person ignores the truth, distorts reality and flat out LIES to make their point. *I* can back up my points with facts, figures and sources. YOU on the other hand want to wave your Obi-Wan Kenobe hand across the face of others and convince them that what the are seeing isn’t really there. You’ve shown a complete lack of integrity and a disrespect for everything the Founders stood for. You want to redistribute the wealth? Fine, let’s have that debate. Let’s cover the pros and cons of both sides but don’t distort the facts by claiming the founders themselves were redistributing wealth because it is ABUNDANTLY clear through the DOZENS of sources we have that the founders were absolutely against the government “evening the playing field”. You even said the Revolution was about redistribution which is a flat out LIE and you MUST know it. No one can be so stupid as to miss the fact that the Revolution was about REPRESENTATION (or a lack thereof…just like today’s TEA Party movement I might add) and about the governments attacks on individual rights as declared by the ENGLISH Bill of Rights written many years earlier. Your lies will not work here…perhaps Delaware Liberal would like to hear your drivel.

I am going to try to work with the CIA description of Marxism even though it has its limitations because it is a decent starting point and we do need to have some basis for understanding in order to carry on a conversation. I don’t think their definition has any neccessary conflicts with what I have said about Marxism in America. I have never made the claim that America was already a fully Marxist nation. I have made the claim that it is here though and has been gradually creeping into our nation over the course of decades.

“One of the writers here stated – banks, auto companies, and healthcare have been “nationalized”. But that’s not the truth. That is a perversion of the truth. Serious times, war time, financial crisis time, times like this demand the truth. That is why I am insisting good people in the Republican Party pay due respect to truth. ”
I personally will not claim that there is a full fledged nationalization of any of those sectors yet. I acknowledge that some people, icluding myself at times, take something that is true and then go beyond it. A lot of Community Banks, and Ford are still independent. However, I will assert that the process of nationalization has begun. Unless I missed the news story, while some of the banks may have paid back their stimulus money, I have not heard about the Government selling back any of its shares of the banks or auto companies which it assumed durring their bailouts and bankruptcies. Also the Health Care Reform bill is a step in the direction of nationalizing that sector. I am glad that the American people were able to ensure that it was a small step.

“What exactly has been done since January 2009 that leads to frantic charges of Marxism/Communism directed at Obama and his supporters? ”

As I mentioned before Marxism was creeping into America long before 2009. What happened in 2009? A lot of things, and they showed me that the downward trend towards Marxism had only grown steeper. Here are some of the flashy red flags; Van Jones, Valerie Jarret, Mark Lloyd, and Mao on the Christmas Tree. I am assuming you are aware of the story on all of them. I can elaborate if you aren’t. The President pushing out the CEO of GM was another. Having our debt China (one of those Communist nations) continue to balloon also throws up flags.

““Nationalization” means the government seizes complete control of private property by government edict. That cannot happen in any significant way in the United States. In 1952 President Truman ordered his Commerce Secretary to seize the steel industry for reasons of National Security. The result was a landmark Supreme Court decision “The Steel Seizure Case” saying the government can’t do that. Can’t just “nationalize” stuff. Not gonna do that.”

A couple of years ago I would have belived that, no problem. However, in this decade I awakened to the fact that our government has gotten out of control on many levels. One is expanding overuse and abuse of eminent domain. Also I see the Congress and State Legislature ignoring their own rules and procedures in order to get what they want and what they think will serve the greater good.

“You cannot possibly have Marxism or communism without nationalizing everything. So if you are worried about Marxism, you are really saying that you are worried that we will abolish the Constitution.”
I AM concerned that the Constitution might be abolished. However, they don’t even need to do that. If they keep on the path of ignoring rules and laws that get in their way the Constitution will become what you say Marxism is now. I sat there on the last day of the Legislative Session in Delaware and watched our Legislature violate the State Constitution. It was the most amazing thing to me though it was a small thing to them. Then I saw the Congress violate its own rules in order to get the vote on the Health Care bill. Yes, I am worried about our Constitution becoming a thing of the past.

“During the Cold War nobody was worried we would get suckered into voting Communists, make some slippery slope slide into a communist dictatorship -the fear was they would blow us up, surround us, strangle us and force us to be communists. That’s over now.”

If you don’t think Americans were worried about Marxist infiltrating and subverting America from within than what was McCarthyism? Right or wrong the McCarthy trials are clear proof that Americans were looking within and without our country for the threat of Communism. Your fears may be over but that doens’t mean Marxism is.

“Not only is Marxism a defunct relic of the last century that nobody is interested in, except university professors and out of date extremists, it’s not possible to implement Marxism in the United States without armed insurrection or military surrender to some Marxist enemy abroad. Some way to get rid of the Constitution. Not only is the Constitution the blueprint for liberty, it’s an invulnerable shield against tyrannies like Marxism.”

The Constitution is not invulnerable, nor does it make us invulnerable. It is extremely vulnerable and so are we. It requires the continued dedication of the American people to uphold and secure it. Unfortunatly we fell asleep for a long time. If Americans don’t pay attention to the Constitution than it all falls appart and it can help no one.

“So the Obama administration hasn’t been pitting the EVIL COPORATE LEADER MINORITY against the American worker? Really? The Obama administration doesn’t support the message of unions who are exploiting the Marxist ideology that business leaders are evil and the workers must unite to destroy them? Obama and his administration haven’t moved at all to take ANY ownership of companies (especially those industries dominated by union labor?) *cough GM Cough* right….gotcha”

You are plain wrong. Extreme wrong. Confusing Union Members with Marxists. Unions do not mean communism dude. Corporations are not evil. Who feeds you this crap? Total fiction. All lies. How many freakin’ times do you have to hear the facts before you stop making shit up?

1. *cough GM Cough* BUSH IS THE PRESIDENT WHO SAID WE NEEDED TO BUY INTO THE BANKS AND GM – NOT OBAMA. OBAMA AGREED WITH BUSH AND CHENEY. For God’s sake man Goggle October 2008 for the President Bush’s emergency addresses to the Nation on banks and auto companies. Stop saying that was something Obama did. Say it once it’s a mistake. Say it twice it’s just plain ignorant.

2. YOU and only you sir, are the one using the word EVIL. Don’t you get it? You and Rush and Glen are saying somebody unnamed person thinks business and capitalism are EVIL. But nobody in the real world, not Obama not the Union leader ever said that. You are making shit up.

YOU said there are people telling workers that “business leaders are evil and the workers must unite to destroy them”. That workers must untie to destroy business leaders. Really Evan? Somebody is encouraging us to destroy business leaders?

I ask who is saying that? Only you. Only Rush. Only Glen. Not union leaders. Not the President. It part of that make believe world I am trying to bust up.

How about if I say, “you know Evan Q. all those right wingers who think Union leaders should be rounded up and put in concentration camps, destroyed”. Then you say – would said that? Then I say – you know all those right wingers who say that. Then you say – who? Then I say – you know.

Get real man. Only people I ever heard talk about corporate America being evil is conservatives trying to explain what they think liberals think. That’s way different from the truth.

Maybe in the twisted world of fanatics anybody who supports unions is Marxists. Most Americans consider union members just plain old red blooded American Union Members. Maybe in the twisted world anybody who talks about greed or corruption is Marxist. I call it just being an American.

Teddy Roosevelt busting up the monopolies complaining about them sucking everybody dry, must have been a Marxist even before Lenin. We busted up big bad AT&T under the Reagan watch in 1984, used antitrust laws saying they controlled too much telecommunications. Sound like a Reagan Marxist plot? We got enemies all over the place, just not where you are looking.

My point has more to do with fair play in political debate than what is Marxism. For the record, the CIA definition of Marxism:

Marxism – the political, economic, and social principles espoused by 19th century economist Karl Marx; he viewed the struggle of workers as a progression of historical forces that would proceed from a class struggle of the proletariat (workers) exploited by capitalists (business owners), to a socialist “dictatorship of the proletariat,” to, finally, a classless society – Communism.

.https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2128.html

We all know Marxism exists, mainly in books. It’s just irrelevant.

The CIA label five nations as communist states: China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, Vietnam. In political discussion words communist and Marxist are nearly synonymous. I hate that we have sunk into the gutter, not satisfied to call Democrats liberals, then traitors, treachourous leftists, now we move on to Marxists Communists. Next, when the sting of Marxist wears off, maybe we call Democrats who want single payer health care just plain evil anti-Christ bastards. It makes me sad to see Republicans being so obnoxious.

We have taken to the extreme by labeling the loyal opposition Marxists. It is a false claim based on lies. Ironically, the same propaganda tactic the real communists used to use. The Big Lie. Demonize the enemy. Your cause is so righteous, you can devise your own truth. You can say things like “they” hate the idea of profit, “they” don’t like free enterprise. The communist used to say “they” hate the workers. But it is all voices in the head. The “they” do not exist in any significant way in any significant office in any significant political party in America. You are fighting the vapors of a vanquished enemy from years ago.

One of the writers here stated – banks, auto companies, and healthcare have been “nationalized”. But that’s not the truth. That is a perversion of the truth. Serious times, war time, financial crisis time, times like this demand the truth. That is why I am insisting good people in the Republican Party pay due respect to truth.

Banks and one auto manufacturer temporarily Subsidized. Bailed out. Equity taken as collateral. All with a clear exit strategy. NOT nationalized. A policy initiated NOT by this President, not by liberals, not by Democrats, not by marxist sympathizers – but by President Bush and Vice President Cheney. Supported by conservatives. A policy passed on to the current President. Who will soon have enough mistakes of his own to claim, but the policy of bailing out and taking equity was handed off to him as a baton, attempting to outrace what President Bush called “total financial collapse”. President Bush said the banks would fail “including those in your community”. I was all for it. When we were all wondering if our little banks accounts would be lost, we were all for it. It was a month before the election in November 2008.

Some of those firms already paid back, reclaimed private status. That leaves the question: What exactly has been done since January 2009 that leads to frantic charges of Marxism/Communism directed at Obama and his supporters? TV shows. Cheesy TV shows.

Voices on TV radio dancing in the heads of innocent patriots looking to protect the American Way. That passion to keep America strong is a demographic exploited by entertainment companies, cheapened into a commodity, an audience made fearful, then packaged and peddled to eager advertisers selling gold, sleeping pills and heartburn medicine.

“Nationalization” means the government seizes complete control of private property by government edict. That cannot happen in any significant way in the United States. In 1952 President Truman ordered his Commerce Secretary to seize the steel industry for reasons of National Security. The result was a landmark Supreme Court decision “The Steel Seizure Case” saying the government can’t do that. Can’t just “nationalize” stuff. Not gonna do that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youngstown_Sheet_&_Tube_Co._v._Sawyer

You cannot possibly have Marxism or communism without nationalizing everything. So if you are worried about Marxism, you are really saying that you are worried that we will abolish the Constitution.

If you are worried about single payer health insurance, that is an entirely different matter, a policy matter to be decided in a democratic way, with no connection to Marxism. Call it what you will, insult it all you want, but Canada is not Marxism. The Veterans Administration, TriCare, Medicare, and Medicaid are not Marxism. They are American inventions time again supported by a free society expressing their will at the polls.

Not only is Marxism a defunct relic of the last century that nobody is interested in, except university professors and out of date extremists, it’s not possible to implement Marxism in the United States without armed insurrection or military surrender to some Marxist enemy abroad. Some way to get rid of the Constitution. Not only is the Constitution the blueprint for liberty, it’s an invulnerable shield against tyrannies like Marxism. During the Cold War nobody was worried we would get suckered into voting Communists, make some slippery slope slide into a communist dictatorship -the fear was they would blow us up, surround us, strangle us and force us to be communists. That’s over now.

That’s why guys like me, who in their heart are conservative Republicans, think it’s so lame for the base of the Party to be talking about the President and his supporters as if we who voted for him have some sympathy with Marxism, communism. It is the big Orwell Lie. It is a giant concession to stupidity. It is in keeping with the professional wrestling Howard Stern Glen Beck Jerry Springer culture. The coarse cheap cheesy insult accompanied by the temper tantrum. It is being pushed by nuts on radio and TV. Those who are suckered in by this cheap shit approach to civic affairs should reconsider what they are a part of.

I afraid that some of those who fought in Korea, Vietnam and the Cold War, were fighting Korea, Vietnam, and Russia, perhaps militant Communism, but not Marxism. Someone who really fights Marxism will oppose it whether it appears in the form of a violent Communist regime or quietly in the halls of their own government and schools.

As to Glenn Beck, perhaps he does have my number, but someone also has yours and it isn’t Beck. You are listening to someone or some collection of people that inform your opinions, and that person(s) is not conservative.

By the way, if you really know history you know that America’s fasination with Marxism started before the depression. People were making trips over to Russia and meeting with the Communist leaders well in advance of the Depression. There they ejoyed wonderfull tours on the Communist propoganda express. It wasn’t till the end of WWII it became clear to the majority of America that Communism had a darker side.

Now, America and much of the world are in that pre-Depression/WWII mindset concerning a different variation of Marxism. With the guns having been taken out of the picture people are starting to think that its priniciples look acceptable, even good. History repeats itself.

One final word for this comment. Communism is a form of Marxism not the other way around. I think this may be one of the points which is keeping us from reaching an understanding even if we don’t agree with each other.

Where did you ‘fight’ the communists?

Timothy, there is no Marxist threat anymore...think

Socialism is Marxism, fool. The nationalization of the auto industry, banking and healthcare is socialism.

..don’t let some clown on TV con you into thinking it’s something we have to worry about...think

And don’t let some babbling old fool try to tell you it (Marxism) doesn’t,/i>’exist.’

I not saying it’s bad to be on the look out for bad stuff, but for God’s sake will you guys please let the corpse of communism rot in peace? Worry a tiny bit if need be, but we pretty much stomped it to death. Hitler. Imperial Japan. The Commies. Time to move on.

Glen Beck has your number. What could be more politically erotic than the thought that the President Of The United States is fixated on a foreign anti-American ideology? Bent on transforming America into something we have all dreaded for 75 years. Marxism. It is pure fiction. Jack Bower 24. Can you imagine trying to rule America through a “dictatorship of the proletariat”?

We all watch all that stuff, but when you get a steady diet of it, start buying into the bullshit, it’s not good for America. Next thing you know you got people, good normally sane Americans, holding up signs with the President dressed like Hitler or carrying a hammer and sickle.

If I didn’t know any better I would think Al Qaeda was trying to diminish the authority of the American Commander In Chief during these critical times, but it’s not the Islamonuts chopping my man Obama down, it’s red blooded American patriots on TV doing it. Weird. But there’s money to be made, advertising to be sold.

You are correct about communism in the early 30′s. In 1932 the Communist Party candidate for President got 100,000 votes, the Socialist Party got 700,000. For all the elections after that, as things improved, they all went downhill. Even in desperate times Americans never had much of a stomach for that workers Utopia crap. Maybe young people need a reminder, but everybody I know knows communism is all total crap. No threat to anything, except maybe the sanity of the paranoid.

There will always be nerdy professors and political extremists who can talk all night about capitalism and communism. Sort of like the old timers who can talk forever about how they walked to school in the snow with a nickel in their pocket. It’s old. It’s over. As I stated earlier – ask the top 500 brains in world what the future for Marxism is. The answer will be: Zilch, or maybe what the hell are you worried about Marxism for? It’s an obsolete concept from times past. In modern times policies are either practical or impractical. Modern economic theory no longer attaches the baggage of abstraction. If something works good, it is good policy. If it works bad, it is bad policy. The intellectual distinctions between capitalism and socialism and the rest are no longer relevant when viewed through the prism of efficacy.

The closest we came to communism was at the time of the Great Depression. If half the population is on the street begging for apples, you are going to get all kinds of demagogues pushing anti-capitalist crap to desperate people. That is why we never let that happen. We never let things get too desperate in America. That is how we protect freedom, capitalism is one extension of that freedom.

You can read all you want about Marxism. Nobody is denying the theory exists. What I am saying is, don’t let some clown on TV con you into thinking it’s something we have to worry about. The worst any President can do is screw us up for four years.

I voted for President Obama. I support President Obama. Nobody I know thinks profits, big business, working hard, being rewarded for working hard, is bad much less evil. Everybody I know understands how business free markets democratic capitalism have been a boon to mankind. Nobody I know thinks lazy people should get stuff for free. Everybody I know believes in God.

Thank you Evan for providing some of that history.

Think123, I make use of some resources that perhaps not all Americans have at their finger tips. They are called books. I do listen to Glenn Beck on the radio and have since about 2002. However, I read books, some are by contemporary authors such as The Forgotten Man. Others are printed on war paper, you probably are aware of what that is. What I have read in books generaly bears out the concepts and principles Glenn Beck refers to on his program, though with less theatrics and drama. Marxism was quite popular with a lot of Americans leading up to the Depression and WWII.

One thing I find interesting is that we have the Congressional Record available online dating back to 1989, the year the Berlin Wall fell, and much of the world started think Communism would no longer be a problem. The rest of the record is still available but much harder to get ahold of and search. The online transcripts of the Congressional Record do pick back up in the 1870s, when Marx was alive but before Marxism had taken off as a global political force. It is somewhat hard for the average American to view the dealings of our government with the active Communist nation of Russia. It is much easier for history to be clouded and manipulated when it is harder for the citizens to access it directly. I’m just saying.