Do Local Curfews Reduce Crime?
Feb 28th, 2012 by David Anderson
My friend Councilman Bill Hare is introducing an ordinance to impose a curfew on children under 16. The committee hearing will be held Wednesday at the Safety and advisory committee meeting. Here is an interesting background in the News Journal. Should the government have the right to tell a 14 year old they can’t walk on their block to clear their head if their friend died and they can’t sleep? Should government care if you are coming home from church or if you are coming home from dropping your girlfriend off at home? Is our family system under such stress that we need this additional help? What are your thoughts?
Parenting by government.
Yes, our families are under significant duress, or rather to put it bluntly, there are a large segment of the population for which the term “family” has little to no real meaning in terms of form or function. The is not news. We’ve all known this for some time.
Second, members of these virtually non-existent families tend to be exposed to environments and conditions where their actions can and do harm others. Besides the harm to themselves, the public desires protection.
Now whether the government has an need or obligation to help these “families” can be debated. However, the curfew is not necessarily helping these families but helping the public who are in danger from those who do not value life or property. Whether a curfew is an effective means of crime prevention, I admit I have no idea. I don’t believe it is helping families though.
Another seemingly good-intentioned, but nonetheless arbitrary restriction that will erode respect for law in young people. This type of ordinance abandons the principle of “No Harm, No Foul”, placing those who have committed no actual crime on the other side of the law. Criminalizing young Doverians presence in public will do nothing except to build youthful animosity toward those on the front lines enforcing the ordinance, that is, officers who should be seen as protectors of rights rather than transgressors against them. Not to mention, our police have better things to do than to waste time chastising kids who are out past their bedtimes.
Dover government should stick to real law enforcement instead of enforcing prior restraint against young individuals who haven’t done anything wrong.
I agree with Sam and Chris. This type of preventive law enforcement will only make crimminals of kids who have done nothing more than lose track of time while at a friends house. Let us focus on actual crimes instead of potential crimes. If we were to take this thought process another step, why just kids under 16? Why not all persons of any age? Is it only those under 16 who committ crimes? Are we okay with the loss of Liberty if the people are under the age of voting rights?
I grew up in a small town in PA that had a curfew. It didn’t hurt us.
Do Local Curfews Reduce Crime?
Probably… and so does martial law but it depends on how much of a failure your civilization is. If the process of civilizing the next generation is failing and they’re violating property rights or defecating in the streets and whatever else then how much external government/coercion they need is an open question. Most of the time it’s alright and people either civilize their kids, potty train them and so on or the kids naturally recognize basic aspects of reality and begin to govern themselves at some point.
If this sounds satiric, well…
It didn’t hurt us.
But would you have been running wild otherwise? That’s the real question.
It isn’t kids that are getting into late-night fights outside the various bars in down town Dover. Why limit the curfew to them?
Just thought I’d play devil’s advocate.
Why limit the curfew to them?
It seems that those who can’t vote to protect their liberty generally have less of it.
Eventually, as our society continues to deteriorate, we’ll have a police state. This is what happens when moral relativism becomes the standard. Most local police forces are already equipped like an army- a standing army- with armored vehicles, helecopters, hi-powered automatic weapons and so on.
Of course, the police state will be for our ‘safety.’ Our government cares.
“as our society continues to deteriorate”
What’s the evidence for this? Violent crime has been dropping for almost 20 years. Riots 50 years ago burned down large sections of major cities, and you think it’s “continued deterioration” now because a few hippies took a dump on the street?
I think you see only the things you want to see.
I think you see only the things you want to see.
“and you think it’s “continued deterioration” now because a few hippies took a dump on the street?” Actually, Geezer your buddies, the Occupy dirt baggers, are responsible for up to 10,000 arrests. The Occupy Dirt Bag liberals, Have committed crimes from murder and rape to arson and vandalism. Of Course Geezer attempts to minimize the rampant crime sprees, and unsanitary conditions that occur with the Occupy Dirt Bag movement. The Occupy Dirt Baggers are what liberals are about. They have attacked the police and don’t have the common courtesy not to defecate in public.
Of course the criticism of public demonstrations are saved for perfectly peaceful Tea Party events.
“I think you see only the things you want to see.”
Please, by all means, Mr. Pancoast — enlighten me. As I noted, violent crime has been decreasing for years. Feel free to list all the evidence that “civilization is declining.”
“Actually, Geezer your buddies, the Occupy dirt baggers, are responsible for up to 10,000 arrests.”
The vast majority were for misdemeanors and resulted in dismissed charges.
“The Occupy Dirt Bag liberals, Have committed crimes from murder and rape to arson and vandalism.”
Most urban Occupy encampments attracted each city’s homeless residents, many of whom have mental health issues. They were responsible for most of the actual crimes that occurred at encampments.
“Geezer attempts to minimize the rampant crime sprees”
Feel free to document a “rampant crime spree” that didn’t involve fighting back against thuggish police activity. Good luck.
“The Occupy Dirt Baggers are what liberals are about. ”
Given that statement, then it’s fair to say Christine O’Donnell is what you are all about? OK then.
“They have attacked the police”
Shows how little you learn reading conservative news sources. At every clash I’ve seen documented, it’s the police who initiated contact with the protesters.
Particulars aside, my point was that if you compare the riots of the ’60s with the Occupy movement, it’s hard to make the case that things are getting worse. Or did I miss the cities-in-flames part of the protests?
The idea of curfews is “zero tolerance”. The idea that if you are on the street at all, then you must be committing a crime. When in fact the only crime you may be committing is being on the street at all.This is no different than the zero tolerance we see in schools that have children arrested for peeling an apple their mother packed them, or the fact that kids have to eat with sporks because even a plastic knive could lead to a murderous killing spree. It is when we take discression away from those who enforce, that we begin down the road to totalitarianism. Is it so much to ask that our law enforcement officers use the skills of their predecessors and determine whether a kid or an adult is up to no good before starting them down the road of legal process by arresting or fining them for simply not having a watch?
And we must also address the issue of age. Why 16? Are we okay if the crime is committed by a 17 year old? Now think of the man hours that it will involve for officers to stop and I.D. check all teenagers just to find out that the 20 year old looks young for their age. This is big government in its most transparent form.
A lot of things contribute to the deterioration of society besides ‘violent crime.’ Acceptance of abnormal behavior, incivility, mainstreaming of pornography, vulgarity, dumbed-down schools, vile ‘art,’ gibberish as literature, citizens on the public dole and so on.
Rick, you forgot voting for liberal Democrats !! Would have saved you a lot of typing.
As I noted, violent crime has been decreasing for years. Feel free to list all the evidence that “civilization is declining.”
If it is on the rise then why are coercive forms of government increasingly unlimited and not “constituted” or limited based on language in a Constitution?
E.g.
Is a lower crime rate brought about by physical coercion better than forms of civilization based on metaphysical principles, language and liberty? But before getting to the evidence that surrounds you with respect to the decline of American civilization you would need to agree that “civilization” exists. It’s not clear how you can do that when you apparently treat modern creation myths (which reduce language to blind, ignorant and violent physical processes) as the epistemic equivalent of scientific knowledge.
On a tangent… the rise of civilization isn’t necessarily a good thing, it depends on what your goals are. But those interested in liberty will think that having more people caged like animals or “acting like animals” (supposedly) because they lack the capacity to govern the physical side of things is a bad thing. Perhaps the truth of the matter is that the very notion of “acting” like an animal reveals that humans are unlike other animals. If truths can be said to be self-evident or evident in the Self then when people act like reality is other than it is, a decline of civilization results. And if history is any measure then a lack of awareness with respect to basic natural categories like the distinction between human and animal ultimately results in the enslavement, caging or even the “slaughtering” of humanity.
After all, the slaughtering, enslavement or caging of animals is common to man. It is primary sacrifice upon which civilization generally rests, to the point that those who lack it often enslave or slaughter each other or are enslaved by others who were able to take advantage of it:
If this world can be imagined to be like a veil then one can only wonder what sort of civilization based on the sacrifice of the Lamb of God will be revealed when it is torn. Talk about wanting to be on the right side of things….
Acceptance of abnormal behavior, incivility, mainstreaming of pornography…
It’s interesting that people can be led to believe that this is all new or enlightened in some way even when it’s illustrated in the graven imagery on pyramid schemes and monuments to ignorance in the past: Link
Read Charles Murray’s new book to see the steady decline of white America, it is shocking.
Curfews? Probably not effective in the long run but only to stabilize a short term problem or outbreak.
Mike Protack
Frank’s argument is compelling to me. I think he won my vote. Thank you all for the input. I look forward to more thoughts.
As someone who has driven through David’s Council District at 2 or 3 in the morning, due to work issues. I can tell you that I am appalled by the number of 8 and 9 year old kids running around in the summer time, Literally in the Middle of the Night.
This is a local issue and not a constitutional issue. More important I think a curfew law will help local law enforecement.
David you have the necessary contacts with the local police. I think a curfew ordinace in Dover would be a good thing.
I was just looking at the FBI Uniform stats and according to them, between 2001 and 2010, overall crime for the under 18 group has declined 23.5%, while overall crime for the OVER 18 group has risen by 1%. This would indicate that curfews for 16 and under may not be as effective and we would be led to believe.
Source: http://1.usa.gov/AkR9nb
Also, I’d like to see the statistics the previous commenter used to base his opinion of the Occupy Movement on.
Andrew Breitbart’s website listed 10 stories of rapes and sexual assaults attributed to Occupy, and on his show, Keith Olbermann debunked every single one of them.
“Read Charles Murray’s new book to see the steady decline of white America, it is shocking.”
Mike Protack, as clueless as he is terrible at getting people to vote for him. Keep up the “good” work, Mike.
“Acceptance of abnormal behavior, incivility, mainstreaming of pornography, vulgarity, dumbed-down schools, vile ‘art,’ gibberish as literature, citizens on the public dole and so on.”
That’s it? That’s your “evidence” that “civilization is declining” — you don’t approve of/don’t understand what your fellow citizens are doing?
Based on those criteria, civilization is declining because you don’t understand its art, literature, etc. “Citizens on the public dole”? Really? Your favored economic system, capitalism, can’t keep our workforce employed, and that’s evidence of the decline of civilization? Isn’t it actually an entirely predictable result of the American worker’s incredible productivity, No. 1 in the world in fact?
It’s pretty clear your main problem is your limited understanding of a complicated world.
“If this world can be imagined to be like a veil then one can only wonder what sort of civilization based on the sacrifice of the Lamb of God will be revealed when it is torn.”
Right. “Imagined” is the key word in that comment.
That’s it? That’s your “evidence” that “civilization is declining” — you don’t approve of/don’t understand what your fellow citizens are doing?
Sure I ‘understand’ what they’re doing. For example, in the inner cities, more blacks are aborted than born. That’s what they ‘are doing.’ For another example, U.S. students lag behind the rest of the world. That’s what they are doing. And the pop music industry promotes the slut as the pinnacle of womanhood. That’s what they are doing. And on and on and on…
Based on those criteria, civilization is declining because you don’t understand its art, literature, etc…
I understand that Serrano’s crucifix in a vat of urine isn’t art, and that Maya Angelou’s gibberish isn’t literature.
It’s pretty clear your main problem is your limited understanding of a complicated world.
And it’s pretty clear that you rely on Chris Matthews and I rely on my own two eyes.
Right. “Imagined” is the key word in that comment.
I’m not imagining things without reason.
After all, in all probability I can leave that to whatever emerges in the purely physical and random chaos of your brain events today.
That’s it? That’s your “evidence” that “civilization is declining” — you don’t approve of/don’t understand what your fellow citizens are doing?
There’s generally a pattern to it that can be understood, beginning with the dissolution of basic natural categories like the distinction between the sexes or between human and animal. We’re a long way from the overly civilized or prudish Victorian era here and the evidence surrounds you. Or are you imagining that people behaving like animals is a hallmark of the rise of civilization?
You would need to admit that civilization or language exists in a objective way in reality that is more similar to the language of mathematics than to the language of a romantic fairytale before trying to judge whether it is generally declining or rising. Why are you almost debating it as if the possibility is open that being more or less civilized is an objective state? In your mind it seems that it all amounts to some people “don’t approve of/don’t understand what their fellow citizens are doing” and then you subjectively don’t approve of that in turn. That’s all.