37 thoughts on “All Not Well in the World”

  1. It is what you get when you piss on their corpses, and burn their Korans, and treat them contemptably as second class citizens. Friendly fire is a vulnerability and the enemy has exploited it.

    What we need is the Republican Party to take the lead and say that Muslims worship the same God as Christians. Therefore, whereas we may disagree on the prophet, we worship the SAME God, who looks over all of us in the SAME way. Republicans have no qualms with embracing Israel, forgetting all the while it was the Jews who entrapped Jesus and got Rome to crucify him, “to the full extent of the law”….

    Point is, if Republicans started attacking, exposing, and financially ruining everyone who spoke out against Muslims, then killing Americans would not be the same as killing the enemies of our God….

    How many anti-Muslim statements have occurred on this blog? How many Republicans jumped all over those making them, casting them out of the party?

    Point is, anti-muslim rhetoric over here, makes it hard on US soldiers over there….

  2. They are not upset with us because we do not agree with them and say so. By your logic, maybe we all should convert and keep them happy because Muslims never fight each other. Is that the problem all over the Middle East.

    Do not give up your freedom of speech. Do not give up your faith. It is not anti-Muslim rhetoric to say that we do not like the world the radicals want to make.

    As for this blog, you may have noticed we remove vicious attacks on people’s religion. It is against our policy. Remember this blog is the one that supported the right to the Islamic Community Center in NYC. We love Muslims here, just not the ones trying to kill us.

  3. Fair enough. Just that the Tea Party contingent of your party, cuts fast and furious upon Muslims during election season…

    I would think that Muslim support could help, not hurt the Republican Party, particularly if it was done under the umbrella that all religions should be allowed to practice without interference.

  4. kavips writes in #1: “It is what you get when you piss on their corpses, and burn their Korans, and treat them contemptably as second class citizens.”

    Kavips once again recites lies and fantasy from an alternate reality (in his head, I think) and then expects others to respond to non-existent claptrap.

    It is Muslims who piss on American corpses.

    It was Muslims who ordered Korans burned because they had been written in, and thus defaced according to Muslim tradition.

    And no one treats Muslims either contemptuously or as second class citizens.

    Kavips entire game is to make a statement that comes out of nowhere, as if from a drug-induced stupor, and then expect people to take seriously the nonsense presented.

    Kavips, why don’t you tell us about your time serving as a Nazi prison guard in a World War II concentration camp? How about your secret identity as one of the lizard people from the Glakvar galactic empire? Or tell us about your secret plan to conquer the world by training ants to obey your commands communicated through a harp?

  5. Kavips writes: “What we need is the Republican Party to take the lead and say that Muslims worship the same God as Christians. ”

    First of all, a political party should not be making any religious declarations.

    Second, Muslims and Christians DO NOT worship the same god by any means.

    However, it is liberals who are intolerant, not conservatives.

    On the one hand, whether I agree with someone’s religion is IRRELEVANT to their citizenship and participation in the political process.

    On the other hand, I am free to express my opinions and beliefs and I will vigorously do so.

    As a Mormon, Mitt Romney is probably not going to heaven, unless he has found the true understanding of Jesus Christ from out of Romney’s Mormon beliefs.

    But I can still support Romney for President, campaign for him, and vote for him.

    I don’t have to agree with someone’s religious beliefs in order for them to participate fully in a democracy and for me to treat each American citizen as an equal.

    Liberals cannot do this. No one is more intolerant than a liberal.

    Liberals are the extreme perfection of intolerance.

    Liberals do not have the psychological equipment to accept someone who disagrees with them. Liberals have something broken inside which leaves them incapable of disagreeing without totally hating the other person passionately and despising them.

    I can disagree with someone without being the slightest bit bothered about it.

    A liberal is unable to accept another person as an equal if the other person does not completely agree with them.

    [redacted]

    (However, Muslims are rapidly converting to Christianity. An estimated 6 million Muslims PER YEAR in Africa are converting to Christianity. Many Muslims report Jesus Christ appearing to them miraculously and revealing that Jesus Christ is Lord and Christianity is the only answer.)

    So I will not, and should not have to, declare something that I know to be false.

    Allah was one of the hundreds of idols worshipped at Mecca and Medina — the desert moon goddess — until followers of Mohammed conquered those cities, murdered the followers of the other gods and goddesses, and chose only one of the hundreds of idols there.

    [redacted per policy]

    However, you are the ones, kavips, on the left who are incapable of separating personal agreement or disagreemet from government.

    I can stand in line with a Muslim waiting to vote at the polls, and it doesn’t bother me.

    I couldn’t care less when it comes to participation in a democracy.

  6. Kavips writes in #3: “Just that the Tea Party contingent of your party, cuts fast and furious upon Muslims during election season… ”

    I have never heard the tea party even mention Muslims during any election.

    Kavips writes: “I would think that Muslim support could help, not hurt the Republican Party, ”

    WHY? Muslims are a small and shrinking minority of American voters. As I said, 6 million African Muslims per year are converting to Christianity. (remember that Africa includes EGYPT.)

    Says who? Says AL-JAZEERA.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdVnILalpeo

    Hispanic-American citizens, YES. The Republican Party needs to reach out to the Hispanic community.

    However, coddling up to Muslims HURTS the GOP among the vastly larger population of Hispanic-American voters, who are mostly Catholic.

    So Kavips, your advice to the GOP is to ALIENATE a gigantic voting bloc (Hispanics) in order to pander to a small American voting bloc (Muslims)?

    And you wonder why I question your motives in your advice?

    Kavips writes: “particularly if it was done under the umbrella that all religions should be allowed to practice without interference.

    Kavips, that IS and has always been the conservative philosophy and the tea party philosophy.

    So notice the subtle SMEAR contained in encouraging the Republican party to “adopt” a position that is already the position of the Republican party and has been since Abraham Lincoln.

    On the one hand, the subtle back-handed smear contains bait that is appealing because it is what we already agree with.

    But on the other hand the back-handed smear entices us to falsely believe that the Republican party does not already believe and practice this.

  7. Kavips also writes: “Point is, if Republicans started attacking, exposing, and financially ruining everyone who spoke out against Muslims,”

    So Kavips, you propose a FASCIST Republican Party that CENSORS and ATTACKS opinions and beliefs that are not offically approved?

    As a leftist, your view of how the Republican Party should succeed is that you, Kavips, want the GOP to destroy the right of free speech and not to tolerate any opinions or beliefs different from what — WHO??? — officially decides are the only correct opinions????

    Kavips you would make Josef Stalin shudder.

    But this is the true heart of the modern “liberal” — totalitarian dictatorship in the name of progress.

  8. Perhaps I haven’t been clear:

    Kavips and others want Christians to abandon the very heart of Christianity… for what? For earthly popularity.

    The core of Christianity is that Jesus Christ IS GOD.

    Islam and Christianity are absolutely contradictory and mutually exclusive.

    So why should Christians abandon their religion to get Muslim votes?

    Why not rather ask Muslims to abandon THEIR religion as a condition of jolning the Republican Party?

    The statement that Muslims and Christians worship the same God is absolutely as offensive to Christians as the statement that Islam was inspired by a demon speaking to Mohammed.

    Why do you think it is okay to attack and insult the core of Christianity? Why not rather attack and insult the core of Islam? Why is one okay and not the other?

    If Muslims want to join the Republican Party they will have to respect those Republicans who disagree with their religion. Muslims will be welcome in the Republican Party IF AND ONLY IF they are here to join OUR agenda, not to pervert the GOP in the service of some other agenda.

    If I move to Estonia, I need to learn the culture of Estonia and fit in. I will not completely lose who I am, but I will have to respect the national culture that have joined.

    I cannot come in and demand that the whole country change to conform to my beliefs and way of doing things.

  9. “Islam and Christianity are absolutely contradictory and mutually exclusive.”

    Moseley again proves his lack of knowledge of both religion AND history.

    One wonders how this man graduated high school, let alone passed the Bar.

  10. I probably should have added this above, in order to cut down on the number of comments but I too (as was Tyrone above) confused by how one could deny the connection between Muslims who believe Abraham was the first prophet, Jesus Christ was the second, and Mohamed was the third, who put it all together in a way the Arabs could understand…

    That knowledge was in the World Book Encyclopedia when Jon was in elementary school… This is common knowledge, just like the IRS will prosecute if it does not get its tax money… I’m a little bewildered that someone doesn’t know, when David Anderson by his comment above, obviously knows…

    In a way, just missing those two facts, kinda destroys the whole thought process of his attempt to rebut my comment, wouldn’t you say?

    Anyways, it is no sweat off my back.. It’s your blog, run it as you would.. I’m just grateful for the chance to have my ideas challenged, which unfortunately, doesn’t happen much lately… 🙂

    But I would add, that when people don’t know all the facts, they can rightfully believe the outrageous statements they make are God’s truth, and their followers, if also on the same fact level, will believe them too. I know this. At home in my family I have a young one who really DOES believe Santa has a house at the North Pole….

  11. Tyrone Biggums writes in #9: ““Islam and Christianity are absolutely contradictory and mutually exclusive.”
    Moseley again proves his lack of knowledge of both religion AND history”

    Tyrone, the internet is littered with Muslims who have tried to contradict me. Your problem is that I know TOO MUCH about Islam… and Christianity.

    Christianity is based upon the fact that Jesus Christ is God, who came to Earth to communicate with the human race, that Jesus Christ is eternally existent without beginning or end, and Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully a human at the same time, and that God in the person of Jesus Christ willingly, voluntarily, deliberately, and intentionally according to His own plan and desire died on the cross to pay for your sins and mine and to cure the ravages of sin.

    Islam is absolutely contradictory and mutually exclusive to Christianity.

    The god that Islam portrays and follows is NOT the God of the Christian Bible.

    Islam attempts to HIJACK figures from Jewish and Christian history and PERVERT them to serve a completely different god.

    Remember that Allah is a desert moon goddess, one of HUNDREDS of gods historically worshipped at Mecca and Medina. This is why the crescent moon is the symbol of Islam even to this day. Mohammed picked one of the HUNDREDS of gods worshipped there, and made war against all the others.

    The desert moon goddess Allah is by no means the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    Kavips and Tyrone: Mormons claim the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But the God Mormons worship is completely alien to Christianity.

    Muslims attempt to hijack elements of many religions. Mohammed patched together a hodge-podge of concepts from this religion and that religion and another religion.

    The surface similiarity comes from Mohammed’s wife, an elderly rich widow who was Christian but poorly educated. (Mohammed married purely for the money, just as Mohammed invented a religion as a scam to con people into giving him money and power.)

    Mohammed took bits and pieces of half-remembered Christan stories garbled and bastardized in the memory of his poorly-educated rich old wife.

  12. Kavips writes: “how one could deny the connection between Muslims who believe Abraham was the first prophet, Jesus Christ was the second, and Mohamed was the third, who put it all together in a way the Arabs could understand…”

    So, you are arguing that if Muslims claim it, therefore it is true????????

    Voodoo as practiced in the Caribbean also includes worship of the Virgin Mary, symbols of the crucifix, making the sign of the cross, and other Catholic practices, ideas, and symbols.

    Does that mean that voodoo and Catholicism are essentially the same thing? Hell no.

    Voodoo, which is a truly demonic religion, has hijacked Christian concepts and symbols in order to appear more credble.

    Jesus Christ tells us that there is no 3rd Prophet.

    Thi is another respect in which Islam is absolutely contraditory to Christianity, and the two are mutually exclusive.

    Jesus warned us that if another prophet comes along DO NOT LISTEN TO HIM, the person claiming to be another prophet is of the devil, and is the anti-christ.

    Jesus tells us that THIS gospel (the gospel of Jesus Christ) must be preached to all the world and then the end will come.

    That is, there will be no other prophet. There will be no other message. The gospel of Jesus Christ will be preached throughout the entire world — not different messages to different people or different times. And when the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached throughout the entire world, THEN THE END WILL COME. There is no period of time between the Ministry of Jesus Christ and the end of time. There is no later prophet. There is no other message. Jesus said that THIS gospel must be preached throughout the entire world AND THEN THE END WLL COME. There is no other prophet or message.

    So you, Kavips, reveal your ignorance (if we must put in the same terms that you put it) about Christianity.

    Asking Republican Christians to disavow Christ and Christianity as a condition of getting Muslim votes is offensive, insulting, and blasphemous. And you are completely unaware of it.

  13. Kavips and Tyrone: Christians maintain that Islam is a false religion.

    So why don’t you just accept Christians’ beliefs as true?

    Your entire argument is based on assuming that everything Christianity teaches if UNTRUE but we should swallow everything Muslims teach as TRUE.

    Why the double standard?

  14. Kavips, you talk about common knowledge.

    Ask a Muslim if Jesus Christ is God.

    Ask a Christian if Jesus Christ is God.

    Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God.

  15. Anti-Muslim rhetoric from some wing-nuts over here absolutely increases risk for some of the guys over there. That being said, the fundamental misunderstanding of what Afghanistan actually is(ie the fact that it doesn’t actually exist except on a map) has caused much more friction over there. That place is a mess, and the rock eating approach our military leaders have taken in addressing it does no favors to the young guys actually fighting.

  16. Jon, it appears that you have a very narrow sect view of Christianity. and of the Hebrew God… Yes, no one debates the point that we follow Jesus, and Muslims follow Mohamed. That is a given.

    However the God, the father figure of both is the same. Most of us believe in God, and that Jesus was God’s son. We do not share your belief, which appears quite rare, in which Jesus is the Creator of God, that we worship Jesus and not God…. Nor do Muslims feel Mohamed is the creator of God. Both religions feel these prophets were sent by the same God, to explain Him to different people….

    It appears your sect, is something unique. The God over Jesus, and the God over Mohamed is the same. Perhaps that threatens your sect, which seems based on the principal that everyone else in the world is wrong because only your sect is right. Why it is right? You don’t seem to know. It just is, you say. And all we have to prove it with, are simply your assertions.

    Like Mitt Romney… You state he came from a sect, (Mormans) that do not believe in the same God as you. But, if you look at Mormon philosophy, it is the same God we worship, just that his was revealed through a different prophet… And because the prophets are different, and lived in different time frames, there will be some differences. But no one can say, that the Morman god is not the same one as ours. They too accept Jesus, Abraham, Moses…

    I’m not sure where you are getting you information from, but it is the exact opposite of truth. Perhaps the difference is just in how you explain it.

    But the God of all three is the same. It is the difference in prophets that have caused the divisions….

  17. kavips writes in #17: “no one debates the point that we follow Jesus, and Muslims follow Mohamed. That is a given. However the God, the father figure of both is the same”

    No, Kavips, Jesus IS the Father figure.

    Jesus and God the Father are one and the same.

    Mohammed was a pedophile con artist.

    Jesus IS the Creator of the universe who is God. Jesus is not a representative of God. JESUS IS GOD.

    Ask any Muslim if Muslims worship Jesus as God.

    This is the meaning of Christianity: 700 years before Jesus was born, the Prophet Isaiah explained that Jesus will be BOTH SON AND ETERNAL FATHER.

    A son is born who is GOD, the Mighty God, Everlasting Father

    ISAIAH 9:
    6 For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    7 Of the increase of His government and peace
    There will be no end,
    Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
    To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
    From that time forward, even forever.
    The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    So JESUS is a SON who is BORN, yet also MIGHTY GOD and EVERLASTING FATHER.

    Son = Everlasting Father. A child = Mighty God.
    Jesus is God who has always existed:

    JOHN 8:
    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

    57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

    58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[b] going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    Note that “I AM” is the name of God as revealed to Moses at the burning bush. Moses asked God His name, and God answered “I AM WHO I AM. Tell them that I AM sent you.”
    John 20:27-29: “27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

    it is not. Muslims want to claim that it is to get unwarranted credibility.

    But no Christian can accept that the desert moon goddess Allah is the same

  18. Kavips writes: “We do not share your belief, which appears quite rare, in which Jesus is the Creator of God, that we worship Jesus and not God…. ”

    Jesus is not the creator of God. Jesus and God are the same:

    There is no Christianity other than the belief that Jesus IS God, and there is no distinction between Jesus and God the Father.

    Christians worship Jesus Christ because Jesus is God.

    Do Muslims worship Jesus Christ?

    JOHN 10:
    30 I and the Father are one.”
    31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

    John 1
    The Deity of Jesus Christ
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

  19. Ahh, you’re pulling out the Trinity argument. That is exactly the point I was making. You are using Jesus to define God. Muslims use Mohamed to define God. Jews, just define God.

    It is still the same God.

  20. And keep in mind, when you are quoting scripture, you are going through at least 5 languages at the minimum, and for old Testament, quite possibly ten translations.

    Religion is about ideas. Not individual words.

  21. “Jesus and God the Father are one and the same.”

    In the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are distinct from another. Matthew 11:27, “No one knoweth the Son, but the Father,”

    We are not capable of discovering this truth/mystery apart from divine revelation and even when revealed we have only a partial understanding. Trinitarian doctrine is complex. For those who truly wish to understand some of the complexity (and the mystery) I offer the following link for additional study: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

    Suffice to say that Jon’s statement is simplistic and demonstrates a childlike view of the Trinity in attempting to define the God of Islam as a different God than the Christian God. Further, I suggest that Jon’s view of Jesus Christ is such that he has no need of God the Father and indeed, God the Father is somewhat of an inconvenient truth. In fact, I would guess that Jon has never prayed to God the Father or even the Holy Spirit, contenting himself with Jesus, which by his declaration includes the other two anyway. His view/beliefs are common to evangelistic Christians who prefer that their God be Jesus and only Jesus rather than the three, who are one.

    “go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:18), unless you are Jon, in which case it’s just “in the name of the Son.”

  22. Kavips writes in #21: “And keep in mind, when you are quoting scripture, you are going through at least 5 languages at the minimum, and for old Testament, quite possibly ten translations.”

    No, that is false. That is a common urban myth.

    All translations of the Bible are a 1 step translation from the original language to the translation you are reading. You are not going “through” any languages at all.

    However, Bible translators — teams of HUNDREDS of experts in ancient languages — consider EVERYTHING during their translation. They consider ALL existing copies in any language from early times

    The fact that many teams have independently translated the Bible into different languages offers a quality-check that is considered by all other translation teams.

    So if different teams, unrelated to each other, came up with a radically different translation for a passage, everyone would know about it and investigate WHY?

    Even the translations of the Bible include notes where words might be translated with slightly different meanings. The translators (in most translations) alert the reader to any alternate possibility of meaining.

  23. However, Kavips, first, I had no idea that you were speaking of yourself as a Muslim (as you apparently state) participating in politics and potentially in the Republican Party.

    I have been harsher than I would have been if I knew you were speaking about yourself, rather than simply — as I assumed — stirring up trouble and dissension.

    Nearly everything you write, Kavips, consists of making false claims about what Republicans believe. To me, your comments about the Republican Party’s attitude towards Muslims is simply yet another example of you trying to throw a stink bomb into the room. My attitude is to throw it right back at you. But I am simply throwing the stink bomb back at people, not throwing my own.

    So what is the point relating to this thread?

    1) You want the Republican party to abandon the beliefs of most of its members in order to welcome you.

    You are welcome, if you agree with the GOP’s goals and principles and policy agenda.

    If you don’t agree with the GOP’s goals, principles, and policy agenda, then WHY in the blazes would you want to join?

    Why would ANY organization want you as a member if you don’t agree with its goals, principles, and policy agenda???

    Suppose I tell the local opera club: “I would love to join your opera club, but only if you stop listening to opera.”

    Would ANY other organization anywhere in life do what you (and others) suggest? Why would any organization, political or not, change what it stands for to suit you as a potential (and likely disloyal because you haven’t joined yet) prospective candidate?

    2) One of the serious errors that Muslims make in talking to Christians and Western society is to ASSUME that Christians are ignorant.

    The Muslim assumption (interacting in Western society) is that if only Christians were not so ignorant they would become Muslims.

    You are welcome to share your faith and to invite people to your religion. That is an essential part of human rights. You are welcome to argue in the public square why your religion is right and why people should believe what you believe. No religion or political belief can be truly exercised without the freedom to tell other people about it, argue its merits, and attempt to persuade people to the truth of your religion.

    However, if you hope to succeed, you also need to understand whom you are talking to.

    While there are many, many people in ALL religions who do not take their own religion seriously, have not studied it, and don’t know very much about their own religion…

    … most Christians are vastly more informed and educated about both Christianity and Islam than Muslims imagine.

    So while you have every right to make any argument you want tomake, Muslim arguments are like fingernails on a chalk board. Muslims posture as if Christians don’t understand these things, and then make specific points that demonstrate that the Muslim doesn’t know the first thing about Christianity.

    I argue these points in the hopes that someone will REALIZE that there is something for them to learn. I am not saying you have to agree with me. But if Tyrone has read from a blog somewhere that Judges 19 shows women are inferior to men, I am interested to challenge him: HAVE YOU READ IT? Or are you just repeating what you read in a blog somewhere? At the very least, if you are going to try to make an argument about the Bible, it wouldn’t hurt to know what the Bible says.

  24. So you want the Republican Party to publicly declare that Muslims worship the same god as Christians, and to punish and destroy anyone who criticizes Muslims in any way. (Note that this Islamic domination of society is a part of the Muslim program, to cause all of the world to be subservient to Islam, especially by preventing all dissent.)

    But what you are asking is deeply offensive to Christians.

    Not, of course, those Christians who do not take their own religion seriously, such as Dave. Dave openly admits here on DP that he enjoys poking the Catholic Church in the eye and rejects the beliefs of the Catholic Church. I am not saying that. Dave said that. He said the Pope seems like a nice guy but Dave enjoys poking the Catholic Church (in context meaning to attack it).

    There are many Muslims who do not take Islam seriously. There are many Muslims who are as uninformed about Islam as many Catholics are uninformed about Christianity, or Protestants likewise.

    But you cannot define a religion by those who do not practice it and do not take it seriously.

    For any one who is serious about their Christianity, you demand that they betray their own religion, commit blasphemy and apostasy, and turn their back on God…. just to entice you to join the Republican Party?

    If you agreed with what the GOP stands for, why haven’t you joined already?

    If the GOP has to change its goals to get you to join, why would the GOP want you in its ranks?

    If you agree with the goals, then get on board. Welcome aboard. If you don’t agree with the goals, why would either one of us want you in the party?

  25. Dave writes: “I suggest that Jon’s view of Jesus Christ is such that he has no need of God the Father and indeed, God the Father is somewhat of an inconvenient truth.”

    Jesus is the Father, Dave. They are one and the same.

    700 years before Jesus was born, Isaiah prophesied that A CHILD WILL BE BORN who is THE EVERLASTING FATHER, Mighty God?

    How can a child be born who is the everlasting father? How can “the Mighty God” be born? How can a child be born who is EVERLASTING?

    Yet that is what the Bible says. And Isaiah was locked up in the Dead Sea Scrolls from around 300 BC until 1946. So we know it was written before Jesus was born.

    Think of it this way: If you had a giant aquarium and you stuck your hand into the aquarium, the fish would see a hand.

    Then in another part of the aquarium, you put your face into the water. The fish would see a face.

    From the standpoint of the fish, they would think they were seeing 2 entirely different beings: (1) a hand (2) a face.

    But we know that your hand and your face are the same person: Both are you.

    Your head is you. Your hand is you. Your feet are you. Your ears are you. Your hair is you. It is all you.

    Your hands obey your head. And yet your hands are still you.

    God exists outside of the created universe, like a man standing next to but outside of an aquarium.

    So when God decided to visit planet Earth, that part of God which is everywhere at once and bigger than the created universe is “THE FATHER” while that portion of God which stepped into the body of a human man is “THE SON.”

    But these are only metaphors to help us understand who do not have the perspective to truly understand what God is referring to.

    But it is all God.

    Dave, what do you understand Jesus means when Jesus declares “BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN, I AM” ?

    Jesus lived more than 1,500 years after Abraham lived and died.

    Dave, the Jewish leaders (experts in the scriptures) picked up stones to stone Jesus. They understood that Jesus was claiming to be God.

    John 10
    32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

    Those listening, trained in the scriptures, clearly understood that Jesus was claiming to BE the Father.

  26. Oh Jon, you know I don’t stir up trouble and dissension. I stir up ideas. Everyone has a viewpoint. And every viewpoint is different. It has to be,.. because all individuals have a different universe of experience.

    Do you think like Bodenweiser? Do you think like Frank Knotts? Do you think like O’Donnell?

    No. Therefore when you make a statement that goes against truth as it has been spoken, I have to ask you about it.. As in how did you come up with that idea? There is always the small chance I may learn something.

    Somewhere along the path you seem to misinterpret that we want the Republican Party to repudiate Christianity. I thought you were simply jesting at first so I left it alone. However, it appears you misinterpreted my intention. I wished to state that Republicans don’t like Muslims very much. In public, that is one thing, they say they have no trouble with Muslims. In private. they are more honest…

    We both agree to your analogy that the opera club should not forgo opera. So for the Republican Party to become Muslim, is a stretch, and one I certainly wouldn’t recommend. I’m struggling to figure out how you were misdirected, and I think it was when I said that embracing Muslims into your party, would do more for your party than showing them outright hostility… Yes I believe that was it. I didn’t mean for Republicans to give up Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Just for them to say, … “you are very welcome here. How many votes can you round up for us… lol..”

    You are correct when you state that Muslims don’t think of Jesus as God. They see him as a prophet like Mohamed or Issiah or Jeremiah. A man who walks with God. But how hard is it to accept that belief from them., since as I said all along, they worship the same God and follow the same Biblical history as do we beginning with Adam?

    As for translations, I’ll give you one example. When Paul wrote he used Greek words for love. Whereas Americans say love, the Greeks have three kinds of love. Phillos, as in Philadelphia… Eros, as in erotic… and Agape, with passes for love beyond all understanding.

    We say God loves you, your fans love you, your girlfriend loves you all with the same word. So, when someone who has just read the Songs of Solomon, reads Paul’s words that God loves you, he might be inclined to get the wrong idea….. The fault is language.

    So scripture is open to interpretation. Words are often put down as what he translator thinks is the best option. Translators all have different opinions and viewpoints depending upon which Century they find themselves in…

    That is why translations differ.

  27. “Dave openly admits here on DP that he enjoys poking the Catholic Church in the eye and rejects the beliefs of the Catholic Church. ”

    I am convinced that you do not actually read what I (or anyone else for that matter) writes. I have never openly (or even covertly) admitted any such thing. I do not reject Catholic Church dogma. In fact, I liberally quote such dogma, including the link I provided above. You were correct, that I poke the Church in the eye sometimes. I enjoy it immensely when it becomes too full of itself. However, I am Catholic, and I believe in the One, Holy, Catholic (Universal), and Apostalic Church. Just for the record, I also believe that there are many false religions/churches, not because they worship a different God but because they openly practice hypocricy justifying their actions with false interpretations of the Word of God. And in doing so, they are blasphemous.

  28. “As for translations, I’ll give you one example. When Paul wrote he used Greek words for love. Whereas Americans say love, the Greeks have three kinds of love. Phillos, as in Philadelphia… Eros, as in erotic… and Agape, with passes for love beyond all understanding. ”

    Excellent example. Yet there are those who insist that they know the correct interpretation and in this they presume to know the mind of God. And by doing so, they profane God.

    Once again, Matthew 11:27, “No one knoweth the Son, but the Father,” and those that claim such knowledge for themselves, what can be said of them?

  29. Yet there are those who insist that they know the correct interpretation and in this they presume to know the mind of God.

    But it would probably be worse to claim to be the Father or God, wouldn’t it?

    On another note, it’s amazing how history indicates how influential the Jesuits were in the inquisition and have been around the world in undermining or establishing governments (including helping to divide the British empire) and so on and so forth… and yet, they can’t seem to devise a way to “divide and conquer” their own networks or “bundle of sticks.”

    Even now, your Father just can’t seem to organize much of an inquisition into pedophilia within his organization:

    In his traditional Christmas address yesterday to cardinals and officials working in Rome, Pope Benedict XVI claimed that pedophilia wasn’t considered an absolute evil as recently as the 1970s and that child pornography is increasingly considered “normal” by society.
    “In the 1970s, pedophilia was theorized as something fully in conformity with man and even with children,” the Pope said.
    “It was maintained – even within the realm of Catholic theology – that there is no such thing as evil in itself or good in itself. There is only a ‘better than’ and a ‘worse than’. Nothing is good or bad in itself.” –Google

    That’s a long way from the inquisition hunting down, killing and torturing people for publishing the teachings of Jesus, isn’t it?

    Still waiting on an inquisition into the way that the Catholic Church is involved in laundering drug money and so on too. Maybe nothing is good or bad in itself… except protecting the wealth and power of the Catholic Church and your Father?

  30. The Catholic Church certainly has much to answer for. But then, the Pope and even the Jesuits are imperfect beings (although the Jesuits would probably dispute their categorization as imperfect).

    No one could deny the influence of the Jesuits, who seem to be ever present in all walks of life. Reminds me of a physicist I worked for in the Department of Energy. I knew him as Tim Toohig, physicist. It was much later that I learned that he was Father Tim Toohig, S.J.

  31. Some relevant documentation:

    Because, however, what is treated in these cases has to have a greater degree of care and observance so that those same matters be pursued in a most secretive way, and, after they have been defined and given over to execution, they are to be restrained by a perpetual silence (Instruction of the Holy Office, February 20, 1867, n. 14), each and every person pertaining to the tribunal in any way or admitted to knowledge of the matters because of their office is to observe the strictest secret, which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office, in all matters and with all persons, under the penalty of excommunication latae sententiae, ipso facto [i.e., summary excommunication] and without any declaration [of such a penalty] having been incurred and reserved to the sole person of the Supreme Pontiff, even to the exclusion of the Sacred Penitentiary, are bound to observe [this secrecy] inviolably. Ib.

    In contrast:

    When a papal inquisition arrived at a town it had a set of procedures and rules to identify likely heretics. First, the townspeople would be gathered in a public place. Although attendance was voluntary, those who failed to show would automatically be suspect, so most would come. The inquisitors would provide an opportunity for anyone to step forward and denounce themselves in exchange for easy punishment. As part of this bargain they would need to inform on other heretics. In addition, the inquisitors could simply force people to be interrogated. …
    Despite the unfairness of the procedures, the inquisitors did provide some rights to the defendant. At the beginning of the trial, defendants were invited to name those who had “mortal hatred” against them. If the accusers were among those named, the defendant was set free and the charges dismissed; the accusers would face life imprisonment. This option was meant to keep the inquisition from becoming involved in local grudges.
    ….in practice, inquisitors had quite a wide sense of what constituted guilt, making innocence a rare commodity. –Wikipedia

  32. The Catholic Church certainly has much to answer for.

    They’re never going to answer for it this side of the heavens if people are too busy calling the Pope/father their “Holy Father” or God to notice all that he’s been incorporated into as a mere man.

  33. No one could deny the influence of the Jesuits…

    Notice how they all generally have the same goal, whether it’s Zionist banksters or Islamic thugs seeking to establish Sharia or the sooper dooper top secret Jesuits… they all essentially want global* government. Ironically, an Islamic Caliphate or the victory of Sharia is probably the most unlikely form of global government… yet that’s the one that Tea Party types seem to focus on. Also ironic, it’s unlikely that the American Revolution would have come about if Masons weren’t told to bring it about by sooper dooper top secret elite rulers of rulers closer to the top of the pyramid scheme. Why do so many want to be in the club or elite? It seems overrated.

    In any event, it seems like the Jesuits are often closer to the top and more influential** than others… which is probably why most people do not think about their influence.

    “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
    ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

    (And maybe the supreme art of artifice and works of art is to shift people’s form of consciousness around without them being aware of it.)

    *I have no use for the fantasies of the factions seeking global dominion or which globalist will “win” the world and lose their soul. Better to just be in the present and live at a local level, seems to me. Life is good.

    **Notice how they can’t seem to get it together and organize or devise ingenious “occult”/hidden ways to stop pedophilia instead of hiding it in their organization, though.

  34. Anti-Muslim rhetoric from some wing-nuts over here absolutely increases risk for some of the guys over there.

    Unlikely. Note that in the case of Islamic radicals who are stupid and ignorant enough to take jihad seriously pretty much everything has been tried and history shows that they attack pacifists the same as militarists, Buddhists the same as Americans, Hindus the same as Jews, etc. People could even be educated here by Jews* and Christians deep into tolerance above all, convert to Islam and then become Islamic terrorists anyway. No atrocities by American soldiers and so on and so forth seem to be necessary or even posts on blogs about Islam marking things difficult in an imaginary world (cough)… conversion to Islam and beginning to take jihad seriously seem to be the primary common denominators all around the globe in disparate cultures. Hindu, Buddhist, American agnostic, UFO cults or whatever… they’re all infidels who need to be subject to dhimmitude based on the dream of global Sharia and so on and so forth if the Islamic call to jihad is to be taken seriously in reality.

    *E.g.

    Adam Yahiye Gadahn (Arabic: آدم يحيى غدن‎, Ādam Yaḥyā Ghadan; born Adam Pearlman, September 1, 1978) is an American who is a senior operative, cultural interpreter, spokesman and media advisor for the Islamist group Al-Qaeda. Since 2004, he appeared in a number of videos produced by Al-Qaeda as “Azzam the American” (‘Azzām al-Amrīki, عزام الأمريكي, sometimes transcribed as Ezzam Al-Amerikee). Gadahn converted to Islam in 1995, at the age of 17, at a California mosque and is described as a “homegrown,” meaning that he has converted to an ideology so firmly that he is now willing to harm his country of origin.
    ….
    Gadahn was born Adam Pearlman, the son of musician Phil Pearlman. Gadahn’s Jewish paternal grandfather, Carl Pearlman, was a prominent urologist; and on the Board of Directors of the Anti-Defamation League.
    While living with his grandparents in West Floral Park, Santa Ana, Gadahn described himself as having a “yawning emptiness”, and he sought ways “to fill that void.” He explored Christianity on the Internet, radio, and locally, but later said that he found evangelical Christianity’s “apocalyptic ramblings” to be “paranoid” and hollow. In 1995, at age 17, Gadahn began studying Islam at the Islamic Society of Orange County. Members of Gadahn’s study group were young fundamentalists who “targeted the mosque’s chairman, Haitham Bundakji,” whom they referred to as Danny the Jew for his practice of “wearing Western clothes and being overly friendly with Jews.”
    Gadahn converted to Islam later that year, and shortly thereafter posted an essay to the USC website describing his conversion, entitled “Becoming a Muslim.” According to his parents, Adam was “arrested and convicted of assaulting his former mentor Haitham Bundakji in May 1997.” He served two days in jail, but his failure to do 40 hours of community services leaves a warrant for his arrest active.–Wikipedia

  35. “Unlikely.”

    That wasn’t a question. It does.

    The issue isn’t the extremists trying to kill troops every day, the issue is that those extremists use it as easily cited fodder to people who otherwise really don’t care about America or the Taliban.

  36. Interesting discussion, but I think it has gone far enough off the field of conversation. Thank you all for participating.

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